How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

I'm going to expand the horizons of the series a little bit. See if you guys like it. HR = Hand reading, so the focus will be on putting villian on a hand. There will be a river decision by Hero and then rate how you thought Hero played the hand. I think I'm going to pass on posting an answer rating key and leave it up to you guys to analyze what the best river decision is and how you thought Hero played the hand. So comments and discussion welcome.

Reads: You are Hero, so figure Villian sees you as a normal 2+2'er. Villian in the hand is 42_it. So figure a knowledgable, half-decent 2+2'er who is capable of ABC poker at the least, brilliance sometimes, donkiness once in awhile. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Take the quiz, make a comment, thanks for participating. Let me know what you think about this kind of quiz in relation to the previous kind.

.50/$1 NLHE Full Table, relevent stacks:

Hero UTG ($125)
MP1 ($88)
Villian CO ($140)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
Hero raises to $4, 2 folds, MP1 calls $4, 2 folds, Villian calls $4, 3 folds.

Flop: ($13) K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue"> (3 players) </font>
Hero bets $9, MP1 folds, Villian raises to $23, Hero calls $14.

Turn: ($56) 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue"> (2 players) </font>
Hero checks, Villian checks.

River: ($56) A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue"> (2 players) </font>
Hero bets $25, Villian raises to $98 putting Hero all-in, Hero....

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

I think a check should be an option on the river. If Villain is bluffing with a busted flush draw, he can just jam all in after you bet, and it clutters the whole situation and makes for a harder decision, IMO. If you check, he'd probably bet big, near PSB, but not a push. I'd feel more comfortable calling that river after checking.

If opponent has busted flush draw, it would seem that hearts might bluff if checked to, that's good. If you bet into them here, hearts could either fold, which isn't terrible, but not as good as a snappable bluff. Also, it could let him jam with busted flush draw and get you to fold, which is the worst. Especially with that pansy ass bet on the river. Grow some nuts or check.

I'd hate to see QJ[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] here. That's my guess. If not, busted flush draw and then set.

As played, I fold it.

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

i fold, see JhQh or busted hearts, and hero played poor to OK here

oh and i think villain also could have raised more on the flop for sure

but raise flop, check behind blank turn looks just like a monster draw for your avg 2+2 ssnler

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

I would lead 1/2-2/3 the pot on the turn and see what villain does. If he raises I probably muck.

I fold the river though.

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

I think QJ[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. All other hands seem too unlikely.

TT- bets this turn for value.

KT-is folded PF (most times)

87hh- is possible, but does villan really think FE is high enough to make this profitable?

KQ-possible, but the river play makes this hand unlikely.

JQ-I would be surprised to see this hand if it wasnt
suited, but I think villan's hand is most likely QJ.
Raise/check is a popular play for draws.

AT-is usually folded PF.

These are just some thoughts, any input appreciated.

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

I play it the exact same way Hero did. I like the "block" bet. You are getting 2.5-1 on the river call. (needing to be good only 29% of the time for the call to be +EV) I think you will be shown down KQo and KTo enough times for this to be a call on the river, especially at the $100 games. I think you guys are seeing monsters under the bed, but in a real game sitaution would have insta-called.

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

I really dislike Hero not leading the turn. Lead for 2/3 of the pot and fold to a raise.

EDIT: Oh, and I put villain on QJ, maybe hearts maybe not.

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I play it the exact same way Hero did. I like the "block" bet. You are getting 2.5-1 on the river call. (needing to be good only 29% of the time for the call to be +EV) I think you will be shown down KQo and KTo enough times for this to be a call on the river, especially at the $100 games. I think you guys are seeing monsters under the bed, but in a real game sitaution would have insta-called.

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I don't think you will see KQ often here after the river raise. KT? I don't know how often 42 would check with that hand, but it seems unlikely. I have to agree with the other posters that Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] seems most likely.

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

I better clarify things before I get in trouble. Villian in the hand, which is based on a hand I've played, is not specifically 42_it. I just put a name in there for fun. Assume villian is a decent 2+2'er.

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

I just can't see anything other than either the made straight or busted hearts. TT would have bet the turn, with those draws on the board, as would have KT (but I think KT would have been folded PF, especially with your image as a 2+2er). AT I don't see reraising that flop since AK is a prefectly reasonably hand for you to open with UTG.

As it stands, I would call 87s over QJ, suited or not. If the reads on both of you are correct, then he knows he is calling with a likely dominated hand and if you don't have a high PP, then you just clutter up his straight outs. The 87s is much more likely to have clean outs, both against overcards and overpairs.

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I play it the exact same way Hero did. I like the "block" bet. You are getting 2.5-1 on the river call. (needing to be good only 29% of the time for the call to be +EV) I think you will be shown down KQo and KTo enough times for this to be a call on the river, especially at the $100 games. I think you guys are seeing monsters under the bed, but in a real game sitaution would have insta-called.

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Villain (a 2+2er) is calling w/ KTo preflop, and he's checking the turn with top two pair?? Also, KQ and KT never raise this river, because no better hand folds, and no worst hands can call. I think villain has the mortal nuts QJ or 8 high.

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

good place for a stop-n-go with AK

EDIT: meaning, lead turn [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

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I really dislike Hero not leading the turn. Lead for 2/3 of the pot and fold to a raise.

EDIT: Oh, and I put villain on QJ, maybe hearts maybe not.

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Agreed. By checking the turn, Hero relinquishes control of the hand for no particular reason.

I'll go w/ AT. It's strong enough to call one early raise pre-flop.

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

qj or at, set or K definitely bets the turn. If we assume villain is a decent 2+2er, i don't think we ever see busted hearts here. AK is easily in your hand range and I don't expect to ever blow off ssnl villains with a push.

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

Looks like he wants a cheap draw with such a garbage flop raise, it's barely bigger than a min-raise. A set continues here 95% of the time after raising the flop as does any other reasonable hand. I think he has hearts or QJ.

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

Villain made his straight, or has a busted draw...its pretty impossible to tell which

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

flop is fine

lead the turn

check call river - when he checks the turn he has a draw a really high% of the time an there arent many worse hands he's going to pay off with on river.

QJ is his most likely hand. i dont think you'll see busted hearts enough to call the river push.

paul

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

If he is good player as we assume, his line of raise big on flop and check turn indicates he is on a draw. Now on river, str4 just completes and flush misses there is less chance he has worst 2 pair like AT. Is he capable of reraise bluff straight with busted flush draw?

If you put him on a draw I check river because I want to give him a chance to bluff/lose less if he actually has the straight. And you are not likely geting value bet from his draw.

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

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If he is good player as we assume, his line of raise big on flop and check turn indicates he is on a draw.

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I think a good player can check behind here as well and assume our Hero does not have a heart draw. I like a set checking here, it throws the opponent off and disguises the hand as they'd expect a set to bet the turn.

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

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If he is good player as we assume, his line of raise big on flop and check turn indicates he is on a draw.

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I think a good player can check behind here as well and assume our Hero does not have a heart draw. I like a set checking here, it throws the opponent off and disguises the hand as they'd expect a set to bet the turn.

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Agree completely but imo not optimal since both straigt and flush could deter hero putting more money in w AK. I think betting turn is a better choice for set because he is not likely getting more money unless hero has AA or AK and there are way too many scare cards. Against weak competition at 100 level, set vs AK is for full stack here.
Again, this might gets subtle at higher limits. You probably have more exp than I do.

I have significant positive winrate for 200-1000Nl but TINY sample size. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

Yeah, that's a good point, but arguing that TPTK is more than willing to get stacked here and saying it'll deter them from folding when a flush or straight comes is kinda hypocritical. Not to mention, one of the straight cards improves AK's hand. A flush might as it is much more obvious.

When river blanks of heart, AK is goners. At $50 NL this is probably better, though, betting turn that is. I want results.

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

This hand is a hand I played last week and I was villian. In the hand I held QhJh, which IMO, is the only logical hand Villian could hold. My semi-bluff raise amount was enough to get me a free turn + river card and that was why I chose that amount.

I knew if I hit on the turn, I would get paid nicely, as he wouldn't put me on my made hand, especially if I hit a straight. Once he checked turn, I knew he had AK. And that ace was just a pretty card. I pushed, he called, I win.

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

Well, I misread the action on the river, but I think the turn check makes it pretty clear that villian has a drawing hand. I think Hero in this hand could have either re-raised the flop or led the turn and avoided that nasty river situation. That flop is drawtastic and if villian four-bets it's easy to fold to TT.

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

I think you're likely to see busted hearts at higher stakes. Anyone agree?

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

A free card play is pretty transparent, and bluffing at a guy who raised UTG when there's both an ace and king on the board is pretty suicidal. I wouldn't expect many bluffs in this spot from decent players.

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

NH. Was villain (ie Hero in the hand) a 2+2er?

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

[ QUOTE ]
This hand is a hand I played last week and I was villian. In the hand I held QhJh, which IMO, is the only logical hand Villian could hold. My semi-bluff raise amount was enough to get me a free turn + river card and that was why I chose that amount.

I knew if I hit on the turn, I would get paid nicely, as he wouldn't put me on my made hand, especially if I hit a straight. Once he checked turn, I knew he had AK. And that ace was just a pretty card. I pushed, he called, I win.

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if you were in the OP "hero"'s shoes, how do you play this hand?

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

With perfect information you'd have to lead the turn.

With no perfect information, you have to make sure that he's not playing a set, which might lead you to put in a 3rd raise on the flop...

Basically the semi-bluff kicks AK's ass.

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

However, if you know someone is a twoplustwoer, that can make a big difference in how to play them. If I saw a common name on my table, or knew villian was a 2p2er, Id be more wary of the way he plays his hands. If the 2p2 villian raises pf, and the flop comes in a way that you are sure all he hit was TPTK or an overpair, your FE is huge cause you can play it in a way that will force the other man to fold, because you know that he knows when to laydown TPTK or overpairs.

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

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I play it the exact same way Hero did. I like the "block" bet. You are getting 2.5-1 on the river call. (needing to be good only 29% of the time for the call to be +EV) I think you will be shown down KQo and KTo enough times for this to be a call on the river, especially at the $100 games. I think you guys are seeing monsters under the bed, but in a real game sitaution would have insta-called.

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Villain (a 2+2er) is calling w/ KTo preflop, and he's checking the turn with top two pair?? Also, KQ and KT never raise this river, because no better hand folds, and no worst hands can call. I think villain has the mortal nuts QJ or 8 high.

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I dont believe Villain was confirmed to be a 2+2er.

I'm not saying tht I know he has KQ or KT, I just think you will be shown KQ, AT, KT, or busted hearts here atleast 29% of the time, making the call +EV. You dont need to be right 50% of the time even for this call to be correct.

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

I put villain solidly on 87h.
If the option had been QJh that'd be my choice - but QJo is a hand for suckers to call PF.

Hero made a poor play. He called the flop RR - good. The turn missed the possble flush draw - so Hero should bet again, like 50% of pot and consider folding to a big RR.

As played I do think the turn check + block bet will induce a bluff from a decent 2+2er, so Hero should call. (Must call if inducing a bluff).

/Zal

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

For those advocating a lead on the turn, I think this is a WA/WB situation...Cold call of raise, raise on flop...is this how people really want to play TPTK? If so, it's going to lead to a ton of small pot winnings that are either cancelled out or outdone by big pot losses. AK isn't a monster, even when it hits. The raise on the flop means one of two things -- 1) you're dominated and need to keep your losses to a minimum, or 2) you're ahead at this time, but there are a ton of dangerous cards, and you need to keep the pot small.

The check on the turn, while it turned out to be a bad play that could have resulted in a pot win, was good at the time.

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

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If he is good player as we assume, his line of raise big on flop and check turn indicates he is on a draw.

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I think a good player can check behind here as well and assume our Hero does not have a heart draw. I like a set checking here, it throws the opponent off and disguises the hand as they'd expect a set to bet the turn.

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I agree and additionally it is unlikely Hero has flush draw since he raised preflop AhKh or KhQh is not likely enough not to take the risk of giving free card.

Is Villans preflop call with QJs good? Isnt it to high cards according to 5/10 rule that is risking to be dominated if they hit? A call or reraise with 10 10 is ok.

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

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Is Villans preflop call with QJs good? Isnt it to high cards according to 5/10 rule that is risking to be dominated if they hit? A call or reraise with 10 10 is ok.

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You're not looking to flop top pair and play a big pot with QJs by calling this raise. You're looking to do exactly what was done here - flop a big draw, hit it, and get paid off. I like this play a lot.

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

This stuff is great...keep 'em coming!!

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

I really struggle with villian raising $23 (20% of stack)on the flop, when 2/3 of the time he won't hit. I think you could have bought your free turn for $10 less. What gets villian the stack is hero making top two pair, not the overbet on the flop.

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really struggle with villian raising $23 (20% of stack)on the flop, when 2/3 of the time he won't hit. I think you could have bought your free turn for $10 less. What gets villian the stack is hero making top two pair, not the overbet on the flop.

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i'm not sure what you're talking about. $10 less isn't a legal raise and the raise to $23 certainly is not an overbet. after villain's call, the pot is $31...the raise of $14 more isn't even half pot.

Re: How\'s your SSNL?: HR101 AKo
 

I don't have tons of confidence in my answer, but I am guessing the villian had TT, and I would have even guess 33. The only part of the hand that confuses me is why the villian would check with TT. Maybe after thinking about it some more I suspect AT and wish that I would have called.