Ace high on a ragged board in position
 

CO is loose and moderately aggressive. I really hate not raising the river here, I think I was sort of distracted at the moment. What do you guys think about the turn? I was going to fold the river unimproved (I planned to raise an ace, but obviously that fell through).

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (10.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

Re: Ace high on a ragged board in position
 

I might be missing something, but that turn raise (I'm assuming for a free showdown) just seems bad. Aggro player is likely firing the river as well the way this hand played out, so let him get to showdown with you cheaply. However, I'm one of the biggest critics of the raise turn/free showdown moves on the board, so see what others say on this.

The way you played it I'd raise the river, but still feel like I'd have to call a 3-bet given the bloated size of this pot and our opponent. The risk of the 3-bet makes it somewhat more likely I just call, but I probably raise/call in the heat of the moment.

Edit: Ironically, I did use a raise turn for free showdown in the 88 hand I posted a little earlier tonight. Not quite the same though since it folded out a 3rd button player and gave me position on the river.

Re: Ace high on a ragged board in position
 

I'm with JrJordan on this one, just call him down, he'll keep betting his KJ.

However...I, too, am a critic of the turn-raise-for-free-showdown move...I've nearly eliminated it from my repertoire since I find it rarely if ever folds out better hands and leaves me in situations like this too often.

Surf

Re: Ace high on a ragged board in position
 

ummm...i fold the turn if 3bet.

thats why i just call down.

Re: Ace high on a ragged board in position
 

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ummm...i fold the turn if 3bet.

thats why i just call down.

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I agree that calling the turn is better than raising, but I think once he 3 bets I have to call because I've made the pot too big to fold. I'm getting 9.75:1, doesn't that seem like enough? If not, what hands do you think he has?

Re: Ace high on a ragged board in position
 

if he has any 2, a3, a7, 77 or 33 often enough its a bad call. im tired and lazy at math but it seems he doesnt have to have those hands too often to make calling wrong.

Re: Ace high on a ragged board in position
 

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...i just call down...

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Thats the part I agree with and the first thing I wanted to mention. I think raising THIS turn is bad, for reasons Im sure u know...but u cant fold to the 3bet. Pot is pretty big at that point.

Raise river though.

EDIT: Victor, I think his range is a little bit wider than that.

Re: Ace high on a ragged board in position
 

Raise the river and fold to a 3-bet. Villain mostly has 88-KK here.

Re: Ace high on a ragged board in position
 

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Raise the river and fold to a 3-bet. Villain mostly has 88-KK here.

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I would have called the river and felt okay about it if I got 3 bet. Getting 16:1 HU you really fold?

Re: Ace high on a ragged board in position
 

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Raise the river and fold to a 3-bet. Villain mostly has 88-KK here.

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I would have called the river and felt okay about it if I got 3 bet. Getting 16:1 HU you really fold?

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No. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Ace high on a ragged board in position
 

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Raise the river and fold to a 3-bet. Villain mostly has 88-KK here.

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I would have called the river and felt okay about it if I got 3 bet. Getting 16:1 HU you really fold?

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wait, Im a little tired, but is that a cryptic way of saying u call the river 3bet?

Re: Ace high on a ragged board in position
 

Tilt-prevention, for me at least. We probably aren't good even 6% of the time, but...

Re: Ace high on a ragged board in position
 

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Raise the river and fold to a 3-bet. Villain mostly has 88-KK here.

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I would have called the river and felt okay about it if I got 3 bet. Getting 16:1 HU you really fold?

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wait, Im a little tired, but is that a cryptic way of saying u call the river 3bet?

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I don't think it's that cryptic. Wait, was that cryptic?

Re: Ace high on a ragged board in position
 

Call the turn, raise the river. Easily.

Re: Ace high on a ragged board in position
 

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CO is loose and moderately aggressive.

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Thats why I don't raise the turn when the duce pairs because it won't make a bit of a difference how he reacts.

However considering how the hand played out I'd call the turn as you did. I'd even call some low river cards if his probability of bluffing is quite high.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Ace high on a ragged board in position
 

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CO is loose and moderately aggressive.

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Thats why I don't raise the turn when the duce pairs because it won't make a bit of a difference how he reacts.



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I was going to raise any card &lt;T. The fact that it paired the board was just a coincidence, I wasn't raelly trying to represent a 2 here.

I don't think he's bluffing that often once he 3 bets. 12:1 with ace high after he 3 bets the turn doesn't seem like enough to me, especially since there are almost no draws on the board.

Re: Ace high on a ragged board in position
 

raising the turn makes no sense. its really a huge misplay. you cant fold a better hand, you only fold 3 outters.

Re: Ace high on a ragged board in position
 

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raising the turn makes no sense. its really a huge misplay. you cant fold a better hand, you only fold 3 outters.

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You really think he folds 3 outters?

Re: Ace high on a ragged board in position
 

i wouldnt expect him to fold a 3outter like Ax, but often a 3 outter would. the only sense a turn raise makes is if you think there is value in a river bet.

raising for free showdown plays when you cant fold a better hand is pointless unless you gain a bet on the turn when the opponent would have checkfolded a weaker hand on the river or the metagame considerations of making the play are rather high, which they usually arent especially if youre playing on party where the playerbase is so large.

Re: Ace high on a ragged board in position
 

I'm not going to bet the river if he checks to me and I think there's a good chance he'll check ace high on the river. I don't agree that a turn raise only makes sense if I think there's value in a river bet.

Re: Ace high on a ragged board in position
 

so what does raising accomplish against a weaker ace high hand?

Re: Ace high on a ragged board in position
 

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so what does raising accomplish against a weaker ace high hand?

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I can get another bet out of him when he may have checked the river. Same with king high. At the time I thought his hand would be ace or king high a HUGE portion of the time.

Re: Ace high on a ragged board in position
 

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unless you gain a bet on the turn when the opponent would have checkfolded a weaker hand on the river

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i already said that


also note that if he checks the river with ace high he will probably call a bet. if you dont feel comfortable valuebetting ace high because you think youre beat then a turn raise doesnt make sense. the only purpose of a turn raise is for value, but the times you are 3bet by a better hand and call down overwhelm the value you get by ace high calling the turn raise.

if ace high calls the turn raise and checks the river, you can be sure he would checkcall the river if you didnt raise the turn.

therefore, raising the turn suxx0rs.

Re: Ace high on a ragged board in position
 

You're right.

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therefore, raising the turn suxx0rs.

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I hope that was your edit.