Tricky bubble hand
 

PP $22. Bigstack was very loose.

PartyPoker, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

Hero (t1855)
Button (t1610)
SB (t3785)
BB (t750)

Preflop: Hero is in CO with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="red">Hero?

Re: Tricky bubble hand
 

Id be surprised if there were many calling ranges that made not moving allin correct.

Re: Tricky bubble hand
 

hmm, I ran it...if the guy is really totally insane and will call with 22+,A2s+,A3o+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs, then folding is probably reasonable (pushing would probably be reasonable too, +.1-.+2 or something). It's hard to put someone on that loose of a range though.

Re: Tricky bubble hand
 

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It's hard to put someone on that loose of a range though.

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hey, didn't you recently post that you have a good memory? did you notice the buy-in, high roller? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Tricky bubble hand
 

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hmm, I ran it...if the guy is really totally insane and will call with 22+,A2s+,A3o+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs, then folding is probably reasonable (pushing would probably be reasonable too, +.1-.+2 or something). It's hard to put someone on that loose of a range though.

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I dunno, "very loose" for a 22 sounds like about exactly that range. At least, that's what it would take for me to bother writing a note to that effect in a 22. And any pair, any ace, any two broadway is not all that rare.

I'd need to have actually seen someone call that loose to not push here, though, because while it may not be rare, it's also, even in the 22s, far from typical.

Re: Tricky bubble hand
 

Of course, if the BB had the button's stack, I'd push this instantly. But by pushing here, I'm both risking a loose call from the bigstack and a loose call from a shorter stacked BB (who can still hurt me) with lots of hands that I don't want to see.

Re: Tricky bubble hand
 

Cmon, you have a hand. You cant let BB hang in there. If you fold, button folds, what if SB going to do? Will he push any 2 and put pressure on the BB or will he just limp? I always seem to run into poor players who leave BB alive. I'd push this right now and put pressure on them to beat me. Button probably wont call unless he has amonster, SB even if he is loose will be risking half his stack with BB almost out, BB is running out of chips so he may call with anything or be forced to fold with only 550 left. Also, I see a lot of players play loose early and tighten up late... lol.

Re: Tricky bubble hand
 

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Cmon, you have a hand. You cant let BB hang in there. If you fold, button folds, what if SB going to do? Will he push any 2 and put pressure on the BB or will he just limp? I always seem to run into poor players who leave BB alive. I'd push this right now and put pressure on them to beat me. Button probably wont call unless he has amonster, SB even if he is loose will be risking half his stack with BB almost out, BB is running out of chips so he may call with anything or be forced to fold with only 550 left. Also, I see a lot of players play loose early and tighten up late... lol.

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I'm not going to fold, but a raise less than AI crossed my mind. My fear was that SB would make a loose call of a push, not that he'd run a play on me and push over my raise with air.

Re: Tricky bubble hand
 

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hmm, I ran it...if the guy is really totally insane and will call with 22+,A2s+,A3o+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs, then folding is probably reasonable (pushing would probably be reasonable too, +.1-.+2 or something). It's hard to put someone on that loose of a range though.

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Pushing becomes a little clearer if you discount your fold EV for paying the big blind next hand.

If the table is passive I will sometimes raise to 500t and let it go if I get re-raised.(call the BB of course)

Re: Tricky bubble hand
 

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hmm, I ran it...if the guy is really totally insane and will call with 22+,A2s+,A3o+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs, then folding is probably reasonable (pushing would probably be reasonable too, +.1-.+2 or something). It's hard to put someone on that loose of a range though.

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Pushing becomes a little clearer if you discount your fold EV for paying the big blind next hand.

If the table is passive I will sometimes raise to 500t and let it go if I get re-raised.(call the BB of course)

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If this makes sense, if for some reason I was playing a 215, I'd push this. At a 22, you see more bigstacks making loose calls of pushes (this bigstack in particular) than pushing over a less than AI raise.

FWIW, I raised to 550, all folded to BB, who pushed. Of course I called, he had QJ, caught a Q.

Now the question is: did my less than AI raise tip him off that my hand was of medium strength or would he have called a push? I'm pretty sure he would have called a push but it is something to consider...

Re: Tricky bubble hand
 

My bad, I misunderstood your intentions... Like a min raise? I sometimes do that if i thought button and SB would get out of the way. But with him likely to call it puts him in an easy spot to steal post flop. However, it also allows you to get away if button or sb goes over the top. I still think a push is better though.

Re: Tricky bubble hand
 

Very solid push.

As far as bubble mechanics go, shorty's not short enough to pass up this spot and he's in the BB so you have a good shot at getting all his chips and making ITM at the same time, and he's the last one you want getting a walk.

Re: Tricky bubble hand
 

Very good hand to post.

First off, this is a very +EV push. I think you're being close to 10bb's ought to enter into your thought process. I'm torn.

I think raising is not a very good option unless you expect everyone to fold to a raise. I don't think 77 is a hand I would want to be playing post flop at this stage of a game. Notice I used the work "think" cause I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Could you explain a bit your thought process if you were to raise this?

Re: Tricky bubble hand
 

I'm not dropping trou and bending over in front of SB. IOW, nothing short of AI.

Re: Tricky bubble hand
 

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Could you explain a bit your thought process if you were to raise this?

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With the caveat that I'm not anywhere near certain that I'm correct, this was my thought process:

1) If I do anything other than push, it is only because the bigstack SB was uber loose. Otherwise, it is an insta-push.

2) Under no circumstances is BB getting a walk. So folding is OUT.

3) If I mini-raise to 550 (as I did), SB pushes, and BB folds, I can fold and still have a chip advantage of 1305-550 over shorty. (1105-450 after posting the next hand).

4) I try to take into account the type of opponents that I'm up against. At a 22 in general and against this bigstack in particular, my fear is not that he will push with air to my less than AI raise. My fear is that he will make some loose a$$ call with a couple broadways if I push. Dream scenario for BB, who can fold ITM.

5) Hence, the raise to 550, call the SB's push.

Re: Tricky bubble hand
 

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I'm not dropping trou and bending over in front of SB. IOW, nothing short of AI.

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I think my less than AI raise has more to do with the tendencies of typical players on the 22s.

Dumb question, what does IOW stand for?

Re: Tricky bubble hand
 

I don't think raising v. pushing really changes BB calling range. The other stacks can interpret your raise as either "I have a hand that can handle the BB let me take care of it" or "I've got too big a hand to push come get some". Unless the big stack is capable of reading it the first way and pushing you off the pot, I don't think the smaller raise has any less FE than the push.

It's read ependant. If you feel confident that these players will re-saise with a smaller range than they call a push and will rarely flat call, raising enough that BB knows your pot committed seems like a reasonable way to minimize your risk.

If you had a few less chips I think you have to push.

Re: Tricky bubble hand
 

i would play it just like you did..u bet enought to make the other 2 fold (if they are just trying to make the money for now) and the bb cant get away from the pot.. honestly i would play this the same way. and like u said if button or sb do get a monster and raise you, you can lay it down and still be in good shape for the money..

Re: Tricky bubble hand
 

pooossshhh! but I have a problem pushing into the big stack [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] If you don't want to push into him, you can only push into one person (and he'll get tired of it and take a stand at some point b/c he probably does not want to push into big stack either), assuming it is folded to you.

maybe this is one of those times you fold the probably best hand and let big stack and short stack battle, Meh

I wish I could think like this during a game... b/c during the game I probably push this... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Tricky bubble hand
 

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1) If I do anything other than push, it is only because the bigstack SB was uber loose. Otherwise, it is an insta-push.

3) If I mini-raise to 550 (as I did), SB pushes, and BB folds, I can fold and still have a chip advantage of 1305-550 over shorty. (1105-450 after posting the next hand).

5) Hence, the raise to 550, call the SB's push.

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Okay, I didn't sleep much last night, so bare with me as this looks contradictory. Before you raise this to t550, are you planning on calling or folding to a SB push?

I can understand why you don't want to open push, cuz button folds and SB calls and knocks you out. So, if SB is involved, you are folding. That makes perfect sense, and honestly SB should be pushing a wide range after your t550.

So, first you say you plan to fold, then you say you call the SB.

Again, tired as hell, but want to follow this.