Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

I opened in the cutoff with AdQd, JJ Liu makes it 140k from the button. Blinds fold. Flop is K66 rainbow. I check, JJ Liu bets 100k, I call. Turn is offsuit 2, I bet 200k, JJ calls. River is another offsuit blank, I shove for the rest of her stack(about 600k more). She calls and opens KK.

Earlier in the night, she folded KK face up on a flop of T66, with preflop action like this, phil laak opens utg for a standard raise. JJ Liu reraises big from the button, folds to Laak who calls. Laak leads the flop for 75k(with around 500k behind before the bet, I believe.) JJ raises Laak to 175k, with around 900k behind her. Laak shoves the rest of his stack in. She thinks for 10 minutes and then mucks KK face up.

Side Note: I had never been caught bluffing by anyone at the table, and JJ had consistently shown that she respected my raises, she knew I was out of line alot preflop, but postflop, she never saw anything from me that could be construed as "way out of line."


I had actually been playing relatively passive post flop with the intention of getting into a situation with her such as this. My thinking was that if I could get to the river without allowing the pot to get way out of line, but still large enough to make it worth my while, then I could get her to fold everything but the near nuts. We both very lighthearted with each throughout the night, and joked and talked through different hands as they were being played out....I really believe she is folding everything but the hand she had and quads, of course.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

Yea she probably doesn't call with less than a K... but how often is she going to be getting to this point without a K.

I think the flop was where to try something. She bets small w/ 100k.. why not try to take it from her here with a checkraise.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

Exit,

Against a guy like giga who has shown a willingness to gamble quite a bit preflop, I don't think it's unreasonable to think a player as described can fold AK or AA here, putting Giga on a 6. Hands like KJ/KQ surely fold imo, unless she has a specific read he's bluffing.

Some people commented on how "dumb" a call he made preflop w/ 75 earlier in the tourney. When a player makes "dumb" calls like that, it's much easier to win hands like this since his opponent has to give serious consideration to him having a 6 with a line like this.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

FWIW, I like the play a lot given the info at hand.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

That 75 hand wasn't posted correctly, BTW. I did not call an all in bet, I would have folded in that situation. Preflop action is described well enough, but postflop here is how it happened. I checked, Patrick bet 20k, I made it 60k, he then reraised me to 160k. I then pushed, and he instantly called. Immediately I thought he was going to turn over top set when he called so quickly, and was relieved to see KJ. Very nice to win the toss in that spot, but with stacks as deep as ours were, I think that he would have the presence of mind to fold that hand, or others similar. I never am pushing in that spot, against a good player, with the intention of getting called by a worse hand, I just wanted to pick up the pot. I don't feel comfortable playing that large of a pot, when not in position, to the river with a hand as vulnerable as mine was. Patrick definitely is going to put enough pressure on me in later streets to make it nearly impossible to think that my hand could be good, unless it improves.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

i misread the flop. thought it was KK6. that makes this look a lot better. well, you're betting 600 into an around 800 pot.. so she has to fold .45% or more. so what hands can she have at this point that will definitely call. KK, 66, or a rare K6. so like 3 KK's 1 66 2 K6's. 6 hands that call, so even if we only get 6 QQ's and 3 AA's to fold it's profitable.

Looks good, but i'm not convinced enough to look for situations to trry it.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

Villain could interpret your turn bet as;

a)a bluff
b)a made hand which your leaving room to get away fromon the river
c)a made hand which your committed to

Your turn & river combo means
(a) is still possible
(b) kinda ruled out
(c) opponent may be doubtful(see below)

Do you think villain folds AK/AA if you lead the turn for ~ 300K?
Obviously the answer is no,or you would have bet this on the turn, but this leaves your turn & river combo looking a little suspicious.

With the hands you are meant to be value betting this river with (I suppose KK/6x) you would love AA/AK to be facing 16:5 rather than 15:6.

I don’t know your opponent, but a good player might see that your turn bet was engineering the betting so that if you are called you could still fold out AK on the river.
I guess this line of thinking hinges on whether your opponent thinks that you would have thought a 300K bet could fold out AA/AK, but I think most wouldn’t expect these hands to fold for that amount.

Then again I could be just talking *%$!.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

You open-limped? and were raised pre-flop? And her raise was to about 10% of her stack? The blinds were 20k/40k? That information would be helpful.

I don't like the flop call- she raised pre-flop and bets out. Raise to find out where you're at or fold.

Then you bet the turn when she's likely to know that a 2 didn't help anybody. And she flat calls which can be a sign of strength, especially from a good player. Likewise, on the river, another card that isn't likely to help anyone and now you push? I don't know how much you had her covered by so I don't know whether to recommend a check or a smaller bet.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

Good job bluffing off 1 million in chips. The river bet is completely pointless, She has put in half her stack and I'd say she has AK, KK, AA, and she is calling you 100% of the time. She reraised preflop, bet the flop, called the turn, do you really think she is folding the river? I concede the pot after the turn and move onto the next hand.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

FYI: The Mouth critiques this hand here

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

pretty much the same line as your mirage hand where you make AK fold, with similar thought process and everything right?

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

Given your read of the situation, which I will assume is accurate (it sounds reasonable enough), I really like the way you played this hand. You built up a really big pot for yourself and made the type of bet where she would need near-nuts to call. Sucks that you ran into a monster, but it happens.

The only other factor that I would consider is that this bluff if fairly risky considering she often has a really strong hand when she makes it to the river here. How easily where you accumulating chips from the other players? I am not sure the risk of running into a monster at the expense of your stack was worth it if you had an otherwise soft table. Losing this pot left you with much less room to play, you can't really make too many plays that don't risk too much of your stack anymore.

This play would be much much better if either she had less or you had more chips, where losing it would leave still leave you with a deep stack.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

cant wait for "perfect" steal situations. he had been setting this up for a while, i like the play, regardless of the outcome. she couldve made it this far with AK, or maybe even QQ, which he said he was confident she would fold.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

The STTF thread was moved over here. But if you really want to read Gigabet's full detailed rationale, check it out over there.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
Side Note: I had never been caught bluffing by anyone at the table, and JJ had consistently shown that she respected my raises, she knew I was out of line alot preflop, but postflop, she never saw anything from me that could be construed as "way out of line."

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would anyone respect Gigabet's raises? Is she a professional? Does she know whoGigabet is?

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

You said in a reply in the STTF forum:
[ QUOTE ]
if there were any type of action that threatened her stack, she never showed worse than TPTK, and that is when the opposing player gave up, whenever the pressure continued, she wouldn't even call.

[/ QUOTE ]

but before that you said
[ QUOTE ]
when I was thinking about the size of my bet on the turn, I really wanted to make a bet that tested her stack, yet, wasn't impossible to call, with the idea that my continuation bet on the river was a natural conclusion to representing the near nuts

[/ QUOTE ]

The first time I read it I thought "Well your turn bet threatened her stack, and she called, so why continue on? The second time around though I realized you said she folded when the pressure continued, which makes your river bet imperative given the read.

I like Irie's suggestion. Check-raising the flop and leading the turn allows you to test her stack and pour on the pressure earlier, thus saving you a fair number of chips. She's not going to call a turn bet with a hand that she'd fold on the river, so why not give it a shot there?

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

All,

One thing there hasn't been much comment on is her play. I think her flop bet was really key to this hand and was great.

If she bets pot-ish here, Giga may well just be done with the hand.

If she checks behind, the stacks make it awkward for Giga to make a real serious play for this pot without taking an absurd risk. Maybe he takes a turn stab, but I don't see how she ends up stacking him.

I think her line, especially given the image she had, was really great. Perhaps she too was setting the stage for a play.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

Given your read/history with the villain, I think your line is perfectly justified.
I'm surprised she bet the flop.
It's certainly a nice way to disguise her hand, and probably the better line more often than not against a very good player, but considering that you were playing passive post-flop and that you described your history as:
[ QUOTE ]
we had established that we were not going to get involved in big pots with each other, without very strong holdings.

[/ QUOTE ]
The chances of you hitting that flop are obviously very slim, w/ a flopped boat one might assume she would have been inclined to let you catch up a bit with a free turn card.

Best of luck today.

A side note, you don't know what Laak held on the KK laydown, do you?

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

She reraises preflop. Then leads out for 1/3 of flop on a K66 board. What hands did you put her on when she reraised preflop? What hands did you put her on when she bet 1/3 flop after reraising preflop? I understand all the reads on the player, but what about the reads on the action of this hand.

Granted, she is weak/tight. However, who folds AK or AA on a K662 board to a known LAG with the money not all that deep? I don't see how she got that far if she is such a bad weak player.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
However, who folds AK or AA on a K662 board to a known LAG with the money not all that deep? I don't see how she got that far if she is such a bad weak player.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) No one has said she is bad.
2) Gigabet's image is not LAG post-flop, especially against JJ.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

betgo,

"However, who folds AK or AA on a K662 board to a known LAG with the money not all that deep? "

I was not there and don't know this player, so I have no idea as to how correct Giga's read is in this situation. But, to answer your question:

Someone who can fold and have an average stack with 20-something people left in a 2M first prize tourney or call and go home w/ $20k if wrong.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

not a known LAG, hes just known for a very wide range preflop, so she def has to consider a 6 to be in his hand

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, who folds AK or AA on a K662 board to a known LAG with the money not all that deep? I don't see how she got that far if she is such a bad weak player.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) No one has said she is bad.
2) Gigabet's image is not LAG post-flop, especially against JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sure there was some discussion among players at the table as to who Gaigabet is. How could his image not be LAG on any street, regardless of how he had been playing in that session?

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
FYI: The Mouth critiques this hand here

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately he's critiquing on a hand reported incorrectly

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think her line, especially given the image she had, was really great. Perhaps she too was setting the stage for a play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Diablo, I was thinking about this as well. I think if she checks behind on the flop, it looks like she has a showdown hand that is looking to get to showdown cheap or a monster. Either way, it is difficult for Gig to bluff in that situation. If she bets too big, it may look like she is committed tothe hand and again it would be too expensive for Gig to play back at.

I love her smallish flop size bet. It looks like it could very easily be a tester bet to see if her hand is good and obviously gives Gigabet an opportunity to play back at her.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

I agree that she played it fine, but it looks like a very easy hand considering her holding.

What do you think of that:

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_vide...amp;event=2910

Is she kidding? Or just spending time while waiting? Or building her weak tight image?

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

I already posted this in the STTF, but it seems like the discussion is more appropriate here:

You are making this play because of your level of confidence in JJ's ability to make a mistake (ie, folding the best hand on the river.)

But, there is another mistake she is capable of making; tipping off the strength of her hand when she has a non-foldable monster.

Your line makes it very hard for her to call the river with anything less than KK,66, or A6... but is there a line that would make it just as hard for her to call the river, but easier for you to tell that she's pat?

Your description of her earlier play leads me to think that she could make a mistake on the flop with a nut hand, and is unlikely to try and take the pot there with a hand she would later abandon.

I like the flop check, because the whole point of this hand is to get her to put some money into the pot and then fold at the end. But I would have been inclined to check-raise the flop and lead the turn.

That line really isn't any weaker than the line you took, but it gives her an opportunity to make a mistake and disclose her strength on the flop. Since you really aren't worried about her pushing with a hand that she would fold on the river with (are you?), I would prefer that line as it allows me to save 500,000-700,000 chips the few times that she really has it.

What makes me even more inclined to c/r the flop is the very distinct possibility that she could have AK and wouldn't be able to lay it down on the end. She would definitely telegraph this on the flop and give me a chance to give up.

I think I want to be able to have a chance to give up on this hand considering the relative chip stacks this late in the event. I really wouldn't want to give it all away without at least a chance to uncover my fate if I'm running into something bad.

Irieguy

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

Why not, don't you respect your opponent when you are 25 left out of 550 in a $15,000 tourney?

How did Gigabet buy-in in this tourney? Online satelite or he paid it or ... ? Anyone knows?

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think her line, especially given the image she had, was really great. Perhaps she too was setting the stage for a play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Diablo, I was thinking about this as well. I think if she checks behind on the flop, it looks like she has a showdown hand that is looking to get to showdown cheap or a monster. Either way, it is difficult for Gig to bluff in that situation. If she bets too big, it may look like she is committed tothe hand and again it would be too expensive for Gig to play back at.

I love her smallish flop size bet. It looks like it could very easily be a tester bet to see if her hand is good and obviously gives Gigabet an opportunity to play back at her.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously it worked, but I think a 1/3 pot bet after reraising preflop looks strange. I would probably bet 1/2 pot or slightly more to make it look like she was trying to take the pot with a continuation bet.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am sure there was some discussion among players at the table as to who Gaigabet is.

[/ QUOTE ]

i have no idea why you think that this is the case.

there is no reason for him to be either world famous or have any reputation at all. to most of the world he's some dude who plays poker on the internet.

c

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

Great post, I love the line and the reasoning. It's hard not to agree with you assessment that she is only calling with those two hands.

If she raises the turn, do you move in over the top? Or is your turn bet designed to get a show of weakness before you push the river (making it more likely you aren't gonna walk into a monster).

I ask because I see this play late in MTT's online by you and a few of your close friends. Turn lead and if not raises, big push knowing that you are not against the nuts.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am sure there was some discussion among players at the table as to who Gaigabet is.

[/ QUOTE ]

i have no idea why you think that this is the case.

there is no reason for him to be either world famous or have any reputation at all. to most of the world he's some dude who plays poker on the internet.

c

[/ QUOTE ]

The Poker world is very small. When you travel from tournament to tournament, you see the same faces over and over. Darrell has recently become one of those faces. JJ is also one of those faces.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

Most players at that level in the tourney who have not been there before will fold AA to an all in bet and pat themselves on the back. Especially if they are cautious and have a clue. Remember she is in a position to blow a life changing moment, who wants to call it off w/ one pair?

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think her line, especially given the image she had, was really great. Perhaps she too was setting the stage for a play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Diablo, I was thinking about this as well. I think if she checks behind on the flop, it looks like she has a showdown hand that is looking to get to showdown cheap or a monster. Either way, it is difficult for Gig to bluff in that situation. If she bets too big, it may look like she is committed tothe hand and again it would be too expensive for Gig to play back at.

I love her smallish flop size bet. It looks like it could very easily be a tester bet to see if her hand is good and obviously gives Gigabet an opportunity to play back at her.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously it worked, but I think a 1/3 pot bet after reraising preflop looks strange. I would probably bet 1/2 pot or slightly more to make it look like she was trying to take the pot with a continuation bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

She made what looks like a probe bet, it is difficult to fold to a probe bet, she was certainly expecting a raise. She could have Qs or Js. It is difficult to put her on AK there, the bet is smalish for that. But it is also difficult to draw to conclusions without being at the table and without knowing what Gigabet knew about her.

If he raises on the flop, I can imagine she could shove with AK, fold anything weaker or obviously call the raise with what she has.

But it wasn't the line Gigabet had in mind. Wasn't Gigabet just unlucky that she hold the near nuts? Or was it a really bad spot to try to make that kind of player put money in a pot planning to bluff her out on the river? The deuce was certainly not the card he was expecting for that? Shouldn't he have abort when the turn comes a brick?

I don't think that someone tight can fold AA or AK here or can put more money with QQ's or JJ's? Of course it is very easy to say that know. Gigabet seems to have the read that she can, right?

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

How deliberate were you in your actions in this hand? Did you act quickly - I'm curious if it matters, the speed to which you act in these spots.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

Eh, I really disagree. A flop check might lose her action, and the turn call was good - but both decisions are easy. Other than that, she did nothing special at all. I think it's very random she stacked Gigabet. If she potted the flop, I believe Giga should be MORE likely to run the play.

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps she too was setting the stage for a play.

[/ QUOTE ]


Please.

She was setting the stage for flopping the nuts in a reraised pot against one of the few players capable of running a 3 street bluff? I try for that every tournament.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

There is a very fine line between brilliance and stupidity.
I'm certainly not inferring that you're stupid.

But based on your dialogue with JJ during the night
what in the world do you think she called the
turn bet with? Stack preservation was paramount for her.
After calling the turn she was pot committed.

After she calls the turn I would be seeing five eyed monsters. Your betting pattern was masterful and I admire
your courage, but her turn call HAS to mean she has a strong hand.

Bruce

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

You could also wait for a flop that only you could have the nuts on. Eg. 976. 456 etc. I know you can't wait forever and this is a decent spot, however, it is possible for her to have the nuts here.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

[ QUOTE ]
Eh, I really disagree. A flop check might lose her action, and the turn call was good - but both decisions are easy. Other than that, she did nothing special at all. I think it's very random she stacked Gigabet. If she potted the flop, I believe Giga should be MORE likely to run the play.

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps she too was setting the stage for a play.

[/ QUOTE ]


Please.

She was setting the stage for flopping the nuts in a reraised pot against one of the few players capable of running a 3 street bluff? I try for that every tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

She wasn't setting the stage for a play, but maybe she was setting Gigabet up to overplay his hand or bluff off a lot of chips.

Re: Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond
 

JV,

"She was setting the stage for flopping the nuts in a reraised pot against one of the few players capable of running a 3 street bluff? I try for that every tournament. "

Please.

I don't know who this JJ is, but it is not uncommon in both cash and tourney situations to play in a seemingly weak-tight manner for a while with the goal of getting someone to push you around later.

It would not surprise me if that was what she was doing - and if that were the case, she'd call the river w/ AK, AA, maybe even less.

She did not need to wait for "flopping the nuts in a raised pot" just a hand that she wants to take a stand with against an aggressive player.