AA-rag OOP vs. deep stack and short stacks
 

A bit of trouble here. I should have folded to the first raise, but now that it has come around, what's my play?

Not sure how much of this applies, but here's a link to my last post regarding AAxx. http://tinyurl.com/767vu

***** Hand History for Game 3218749405 *****
$100 PL Omaha - Saturday, December 17, 20:27:33 EDT 2005
Table Table 65888 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 7

Seat 9: MP3 ( $33.76 )
Seat 10: CO = LAG ( $592.95 )
Seat 2: Hero SB ( $193.80 )
Seat 8: MP2 ( $33.51 )

Preflop: Hero posts small blind [$0.50], Dealt to Hero 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] , MP1 calls [$1], MP2 calls [$1], MP3 calls [$1], Villain raises [$6.50], Button folds, Hero calls [$6], BB folds, MP1 calls [$5.50], MP2 raises [$11], MP3 calls [$11], Villain raises [$28.50],
Hero??? (reraise would be to $136.50)

Re: AA-rag OOP vs. deep stack and short stacks
 

I say pot and pray. You can't fold aces in comparatively shallow online games when you have the chance to go all-in preflop (or - make a raise that totally committs you).

Sure, I could see an argument made for being a bit tricky and just calling planning to push all flops, but i say put it in and gamble it up.

After all, you probably have a live straight flush-draw with the 54 of spades. If all else fails, make a straight flush.

Re: AA-rag OOP vs. deep stack and short stacks
 

We know two things here:

Villain is a LAG with lots of money,
MP2 is short stacked.

I assume that MP2 has noticed that the raisor is also a LAG, so he might be trying to make a play here with a good holding, but not necesarily one that beats AA. And why wouldnt MP2 push here instead of min raising? It seems that the obvious move for him with AA would be to push since he only has $33 at the start of the hand. So, I am confortable in saying that he problably doesnt have aces but has some good-ish hand, hopefully with a high pair.

This leaves the question of the villain. Since you describe him as LAG I assume that he likes to gamble, also has some sort of quality-ish hand, and wants to take mp2 out. You and MP1 have shown no strength so far, so he probably does not consider you a risk. Plus, you would need a damned good hand to call a raise and a reraise. I wouldnt be to surprised to see two hands with lower pairs than yours, and maybe a run of cards by the villain.

I say you have to push in this situation.

Re: AA-rag OOP vs. deep stack and short stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
If all else fails, make a straight flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent advice.

Re: AA-rag OOP vs. deep stack and short stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
I should have folded to the first raise

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious? You have a pretty crappy A-A-x-x hand, but if you aren't willing to call off 3% of your stack to spike an Ace ....

I know that Rolf's article suggested that with a healthy stack such as your's raggedy big pairs can be trouble, but come on man...

[ QUOTE ]
but now that it has come around, what's my play?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can get 70% of your stack in, making position and all subsequent decisions moot. I push. If you get called by the big stack, you are putting in the rest of your stack regardless. A call by the big stack also gives you 2 chances to win. One in the 4-way main pot where your pre-flop equity probably isn't the greatest and 1 in the heads-up side-pot where you are very likely to have a pre-flop equity edge.

Re: AA-rag OOP vs. deep stack and short stacks
 

What's the most you have to fear from the LAG?

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1411846
pokenum -mc 500000 -o ac ah 5s 4s - as ad js td
Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
5s 4s Ac Ah 100438 20.09 172035 34.41 227527 45.51 0.428
As Js Ad Td 172035 34.41 100438 20.09 227527 45.51 0.572

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1411857
pokenum -mc 500000 -o ac ah 5s 4s - jd td 9s 8s
Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
5s 4s Ac Ah 246827 49.37 253173 50.63 0 0.00 0.494
9s 8s Jd Td 253173 50.63 246827 49.37 0 0.00 0.506

Re: AA-rag OOP vs. deep stack and short stacks
 

what kind of player is MP2? a reg stack who just lost a big hand or a short stack that tries to get all in preflop.
i think MP2 has AA, he minraises because he wants everyone to stay in and has a feeling Villian will repot.

but even so, you have to push here because you are dominating any other big pair and not worse than 40/60 against a strong wrap

Re: AA-rag OOP vs. deep stack and short stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
what kind of player is MP2? a reg stack who just lost a big hand or a short stack that tries to get all in preflop.
i think MP2 has AA, he minraises because he wants everyone to stay in and has a feeling Villian will repot.

but even so, you have to push here because you are dominating any other big pair and not worse than 40/60 against a strong wrap

[/ QUOTE ]

MP2 and MP3 were just bad Party monkeys.

Re: AA-rag OOP vs. deep stack and short stacks
 

Absolutely push. Even if shorty has AAxx, the main pot is no longer your main concern. LAG is looking to isolate (although his bet size is puzzling) and you have an excellent opportunity to build a big side pot w/good equity.

Reminded me of this'n from last month:

$100 PLO
Seat 5: LAG (Button, $164.70)
Seat 7: Hero (SB, $144.25) [Kd Ad 5h As]
Seat 9: Shorty (UTG, $26.25)

2 folds, 2 calls, LAG raises $6 to $7, Hero calls $6.50, 1 fold, Shorty raises $19.25 to $26.25 and is all-in, 2 folds, LAG raises $63 to $89.25, Hero raises $55 to $144.25 and is all-in, LAG calls $55.

As it turned out it was a near worst-case scenario for the main pot. Shorty did in fact have AAxx. LAG + Shorty had 3 of my diamonds, ruining what should have been my one strong side card. A world of hurt 3-way:

pokenum -mc 500000 -o kd ad 5h as - 6c 6d 4d 3d - 8d ah 8c ac
Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ad Kd 5h 74911 14.98 289763 57.95 135326 27.07 0.285
6c 6d 4d 3d 153178 30.64 346822 69.36 0 0.00 0.306
Ac 8c 8d Ah 136585 27.32 228089 45.62 135326 27.07 0.408

But the $236 side pot is a different story (note that I included Shorty's hand as dead cards):

pokenum -mc 500000 -o kd ad 5h as - 6c 6d 4d 3d / 8d ah 8c ac
Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ad Kd 5h 303417 60.68 196583 39.32 0 0.00 0.607
6c 6d 4d 3d 196583 39.32 303417 60.68 0 0.00 0.393

p.s. LAG spiked a 6 and scooped.

Re: AA-rag OOP vs. deep stack and short stacks
 

These kinds of numbers always confuse me. How is it possible that your EV is less than somebody else's in the main pot, but more in the side pot despite the dead cards? Maths guys, please explain.

Re: AA-rag OOP vs. deep stack and short stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
These kinds of numbers always confuse me. How is it possible that your EV is less than somebody else's in the main pot, but more in the side pot despite the dead cards? Maths guys, please explain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Using a different example from the one above:

Suppose you have the nut flush draw with one card to come. Player A is all in with top set, Player B is all in in the side pot with you. To make it even simpler, suppose you also have the card that middle set needs for quads.

Now you have some EV in the side pot, but it is less than Player B's. You also have some EV in the main pot -- this time more than Player B's. Where did his EV go? It went to Player A -- the times he wins the side pot, Player A wins the main pot.

That's how what you describe is possible. What is not possible is that the % of time you win the side pot is less than the % you win the main pot.

Re: AA-rag OOP vs. deep stack and short stacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
These kinds of numbers always confuse me. How is it possible that your EV is less than somebody else's in the main pot, but more in the side pot despite the dead cards? Maths guys, please explain.

[/ QUOTE ]
It has to do with the fact that most of hero's "outs" in the side pot are cards that miss the 66xx. In the main pot though, these are mostly splitting cards with he other AA - so they only count half as much. Remove the other AA and these cards get full value thus greatly increasing Hero's EV.

To illustrate this, look at the win and tie columns for the AA88 hand. They're each about 27%. These main pot wins and losses get split among hero and 66xx in the side pot.

All the ties count as wins for hero in the side pot. This adds about 0.135 to hero's equity, bringing him to about 0.42. As for the AA88's wins, many of them occur when he spikes an 8. Most of these also go to hero.

When two AA hands face off against a third, completely different hand, most of the time the third hand either beats both or neither and so his equity 3 way is only slightly worse than his equity 2 way.

Re: AA-rag OOP vs. deep stack and short stacks
 

Joe, you are right that stack size, position and the bad sidecards with your AA are important considerations in this hand, but you have not properly interpreted them as to how to play. The 2 shorties are real short, so they should be no consideration at all. Then since you can get almost 70% of your stack in by a reraise versus the LAG who covers you, that is what you should do, followed by betting allin no matter what comes if he doesn't set you in preflop. If he folds to that reraise and 1 of the shorties calls and beats you, you can't lose much.

If the other 2 players had stacks similar to yours and were loose enough to call your reraise with mediocre hands, which means you cannot get it headsup, then that would argue for calling only. But it is still reasonable in those cases to get a little more than 10% of your stack in by calling because of the times you flop a set and can double off of him when your hand will be disguised by not playing it hard preflop.

I have said in the past here that I have occasionally folded AA rag hands with a big stack in an aggro game facing other multiple big stacks, but this is not one of those situations.