A Concept I Stumbled Upon
 

The concept is this: Suppose you are last to act, it's checked to you, and you know that some one has a better hand than you and will call you if you bet. It can still be correct to bet

This might be a hand where it's true:

SB ($518.30)
BB ($263)
UTG ($421)
MP ($1256.30)
CO ($400)
Hero ($512.35)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $4.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls $4, CO (poster) checks, Hero calls $4, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($20) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $20</font>, Hero calls $20, SB folds, BB calls $20, MP folds.

Turn: ($80) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $50</font>, BB calls $50, CO folds.

River: ($180) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $180

MP is 68/24/1.6
CO is 44/21/2.6/32
SB is 25/7/5.7
BB is 27/1/1.1/20

I included everyone's stats so people can comment on the prelfop limp if they want

Yeah so basically, with the flop and turn action I think the chances some one has an 8 are high.

So the theory is that if the dude with the 8 is willing to slowplay then I should build the pot so I can stack him on the river if I hit. I think if I check turn it's hard to stack him on the river. Thoughts?

Also, please say if you agree with the theory and that this is a situation for it, or if you don't agree with either, or if you agree with the theory but think this is not the spot for it

And btw, the reason I bet the turn in this hand was because, actually I don't remember why, I just remember sort of spacing out, and right after I bet I thought to myself "why the hell did I do that?" I think I thought I had the best hand or something

Re: A Concept I Stumbled Upon
 

What really sucks is when you make your straight and he fills so you are the one who gets stacked. Betting the turn is actually not horrible as it often encourages them to wait until the river to checkraise their 8 and you can get a cheap showdown with what might be the best hand.

Re: A Concept I Stumbled Upon
 

[ QUOTE ]

So the theory is that if the dude with the 8 is willing to slowplay then I should build the pot so I can stack him on the river if I hit. I think if I check turn it's hard to stack him on the river. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

bad jim

Re: A Concept I Stumbled Upon
 

If a dude is slowplaying, he is not minding getting it all in after you hit your straight.. after all, he is the one who is slowplaying and trapping YOU. Let him call off his whole stack with his super-ultra concealed hand after you've hit yours. :-)

Your concept is going to be very costly since you miss your hand more often than not, you might also get check-raised off of it since you can't ever know that they will only call.

Re: A Concept I Stumbled Upon
 

ok thinking about the EV of everything even given all my assumptions betting the turn doesn't see so great for the reasons stated

But if we were all deeper, like 1k+ stacks then maybe?

Re: A Concept I Stumbled Upon
 

how does betting the turn conceal your hand and help you get paid off? if you take a free turn and hit on the river, assuming he has an 8, i think you get paid off anyway.

i know you are discussing the concept, but after that 9 hits on the turn in the hand you described, you won't get paid off by hitting the straight.

Re: A Concept I Stumbled Upon
 

I fail to understand your concept. If BB is so donkish as to give you a free card when a free card will cost him the pot then why is BB going to call at the river when you hit?
I'm taking my free card here. There are cases where a bet is in order on the turn, but you haven't made one here.

You lost me completely suggesting its correct to bet the river when you know you will get called by a better hand. You have certainly stumbled upon a unique concept. Could you explain how this is correct?

Re: A Concept I Stumbled Upon
 

How are you going to stack him with a straight once the nine hits? 7889J boards aren't exactly that hard to read.

Re: A Concept I Stumbled Upon
 

[ QUOTE ]
The concept is this: ...it's checked to you, and you know that some one has a better hand than you

[/ QUOTE ]

can i have your pattern mapper?



i pot this flop everytime, its a no brainer. In fact i pot it here against unaggressive opponents with a 7, 8, 22-66, 56, overcards

edit: i am tired and misread ur post. i thought it was checked 2u on the flop. I think ur turn bet is meh, cos u cant call a c/r, that and it doesnt protect u against river bluffs that dont beat a 9 cos there arent any hands thatd bluff the river if you checked behind. I dont feel strongly about it either way, you're essentially paying for a wild image.

forget about this building a pot stuff, its all relative, if you bet x here, (in yoru case x = 50), the most you can really win on the river is 6x if he pots it, and you're about 1 in 5 to hit. Its net even assuming he doesnt have a fh/or improves to one.

The reason i most dislike the bet is that now the river pot is 180, if you hit ur str8 with these stack sizes your gonna puke if he c/rs you with the fh...


edit #2. again im tired and thought it w3as a 2 way pot. now i see a short stack is in it this turn bet sucks huge, if bb has a naked 8 he's pushing here and you've just give up value...

Re: A Concept I Stumbled Upon
 

This flop call sucks doesn't it?