PF Stuff
 

SB structure is 2/5

Both hand have similar position.

MP is the only reason to be at the table. Something like 70/20/1. I'm 4 seats to the left of him, and it seems like the good TAG to my right and I are the only ones really trying to tap this fish. He and I are doing PLENTY of iso raising and reraising.

1. I'm sb with AJo. MP fish is only one who has called, button raises.

2. I'm button with QJo. MP fish is only one who as called, co raises.

Re: PF Stuff
 

im folding both of these...

1. this one is the more interesting of the two, but your position is really gonna kill you on this one...

2. QJo sucks...and is in bad shape even against CO's loosened isolation standards...

party needs a seat change button [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: PF Stuff
 

For discussion purposes, let's also discuss these hands as switched....AJo on button and QJo otb.

Re: PF Stuff
 

I would play the AJo in both cases and not the QJo. If I'm playing I'm 3 betting.

-DeathDonkey

Re: PF Stuff
 

AJo on the button = im 3betting here, other tag is probably raising light since he is trying to isolate the donator guy, AJo dominates a bunch of his hands and we will have position + initiative, only downside is we might knock out donator (but not terrible since we probably have teh best hand + position + initiative)...

QJo = still sucks here, sb or button...

Re: PF Stuff
 

Chris:

Why would you 3 bet from the SB with AJo?

Re: PF Stuff
 

i said muck, but if im playing AJo from the Sb im 3betting as well, don't particularly want the BB coming along as well...

Re: PF Stuff
 

thirddan:

Muck AJo in the sb

3 bet AJo otb

Are you saying position here is worth 1 3/5 sbs?

Re: PF Stuff
 

i think position is worth a lot in the case of isolation...and the other tag having position on not only us, but the donator gives him huge leverage in playing his hands...isolation is not just preflop, the other tag is gonna have an opportunity to re-isolate the donator on the flop...

Re: PF Stuff
 

[grunch]

1. Easy 3-bet. Button will get out of the way unimproved on the flop.
2. Easy muck. CO might be raising with a similarly weak hand or an underpair, but you're going to have to improve to win the pot the vast majority of the time. If they were suited I'd be more tempted to see the flop (either a coldcall or 3-bet, depending on the likelihood of the blinds coming along), but offsuit I grumble a bit and fold.
[/grunch]

Re: PF Stuff
 

I'm working on a PS sim right now for QJo

MP I gave this range:

88-22,A6s-A2s,K8s-K2s,Q9s-Q2s,J2s+,T2s+,93s+,84s+,74s+,63s+,53s+,43s,A7o-A2o,K9o-K2o,QTo-Q3o,J5o+,T6o+,96o+,86o+,76o

TAG I gave this range:

22+,A2s+,K8s+,Q8s+,J9s+,T9s,98s,A5o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo

They players behind me were nits. In this scenario, my range is at least this large, and many times will involve K2s and so forth.

It's not done yet, but it looks like my equity is going to be over 30%.

Does this change anything for some?

Re: PF Stuff
 

In both cases, we have a good TAG in lp isolating a superfish. Let's establish a range for him. I'm thinking most (all?) pocket pairs, the stronger offsuit aces, most (all?) suited aces, pretty much any two broadway cards, and the better suited kings (K7s+ maybe?).

So there's a range. Maybe his is a little smaller or a little bigger, but that's the impression I get from your post. Onto the specific questions:

1.) I like 3-betting here. I think we're doing good enough against his range to make up for our bad position.

2.) I don't think this is worth playing on its own merits. However, I wouldn't mind playing this against the fish, so if the time is right for a steal reraise, I would 3-bet this. If he's respecting us enough that he will check-fold the flops he misses, this could be worthwhile.

Re: PF Stuff
 

i don't think you hurt your winrate by folding either of these preflop. that said, i am looking for profitable opportunities just like the next guy. for that reason i have to say it would depend on exactly WHAT i have seen Mr. TAG showdown to give me an idea of his opening range here. is he raising 66+? Ax? i would need some idea of an accurate steal range before i risk forfeiting a 0 EV situation for a -EV situation. give me the AJo on the button and i would play. yes, positional considerations do mean that much to me.

Re: PF Stuff
 

I find it hard to believe that there is a scenario where position is worth > 1 sb.

Re: PF Stuff
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would play the AJo in both cases and not the QJo. If I'm playing I'm 3 betting.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

^^^ This wins

Re: PF Stuff
 

Q, in situations like these I basically treat the TAGs iso raise the same way I would treat a normal raise from a really bad LAG or even maniac--they're going to be on very similar ranges. Of course, this changes somewhat if the poor player in MP is an out & out calling station, as a good TAG won't bother to iso raise a hand like T9s against a guy that's never going to fold K high. Anyway, I'm only looking to get involved in the hand if I believe that I can win the pot unimproved.

The TAG on your right is going to realize that your 3-betting range will expand as well because of the table dynamics, but he's also going to understand that you're probably not 3-betting with total junk. Both because he is in the hand with something that he at least considers worthy of playing HU vs. the fish, and because the fish ain't folding a whole lot so you're probably going to showdown regardless. So unless the TAG really does have a premium hand and/or connects with the flop, you have to anticipate him folding on the flop, or maybe the turn if the flop looks harmless. In that regard, 3-betting with QJo may be a good move because it's likely to get the TAG to fold a weak ace or king UI.

But, you still have to get past the loosey in MP, who is not going to even be thinking about what you have most times. He's probably going to play a small pocket pair, a paired card on the flop, or an ace high the exact same way postflop--call down. With a hand like AJ, which is going to win a lot of pots when it connects and a few when it misses, I'm willing to put in the three bets preflop and play some poker. But when I'm only holding Q high, I'm not so willing...and I'm also considering the metagame vs. the TAG, who I want to continue respecting my 3-bets. If I open up my range too much, eventually he's going to call down with something and my gig is up.

Re: PF Stuff
 

[ QUOTE ]
I find it hard to believe that there is a scenario where position is worth > 1 sb.

[/ QUOTE ]

so either i am overrating position or you are underrating it. or neither and it is somewhere in between.

Re: PF Stuff
 

im becoming convinced that AJo in the sb is becoming a 3bet, however things like how TAG plays postflop is as important as our position...is he passive postflop, easily gonna give this up if he misses or improves to only a marginal hand, is he a tricky/aggro player? what about the fishy guy?

Re: PF Stuff
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would play the AJo in both cases and not the QJo. If I'm playing I'm 3 betting.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

^^^ This wins

[/ QUOTE ]

Is the main reason because we're not wanting to give the BB 7:1?

Would it change your mind to a call if the BB was a 10 vpip and folded his BB to a raise > 85%?

Re: PF Stuff
 

1) Your hand has huge equity here...three-bet. You are just dominating both of their ranges. Postflop is going to be awkward no matter what you do, but you have a big equity edge here so take it. It's an even easier three-bet on the button.

2) Coldcall. You've got position and your hand is doing ok equity-wise, again, since both players have wide ranges. Three-betting doesn't really do anything in a pot where we are looking at a negligible equity edge (if any) and where letting the blinds in doesn't hurt us very much. But postflop is where calling looks great...you'll have the chance to make a lot of flop raises that put CO's Ax to the screws. In the SB, however, it's a clear fold.

EDIT: So now I've read everyone's responses...and everybody's advocating folding QJo. [censored]. I might be wrong here. There's just a big part of me that wants to play flops with these guys in position...and it's one of those rare spots with QJo where we actually will be dominating some of the raiser's hands (QT/JT/J9/T9s/98s are all in the TAG's range) as opposed to either being dominated or flipping a coin...also there's the whole metagame thing of discouraging excessive isolating on the CO's part, though that's not hugely valuable. Hrmm. Intriguing spot.

It's funny, too. I used to be one of those "never coldcall" people. And now here I am advocating a coldcall with QJo. How times change.

Will

Re: PF Stuff
 

"2) Coldcall."

i really can't think of any hand where im just gonna coldcall CO's iso-raise...definitely not with QJo...

Re: PF Stuff
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would play the AJo in both cases and not the QJo. If I'm playing I'm 3 betting.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: PF Stuff
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would play the AJo in both cases and not the QJo. If I'm playing I'm 3 betting.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

^^^ This wins

[/ QUOTE ]

Is the main reason because we're not wanting to give the BB 7:1?

Would it change your mind to a call if the BB was a 10 vpip and folded his BB to a raise > 85%?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this would impact my decision. However, I think it is easier to play the hand having 3 bet because we are in that situation much more frequently and I think most of us feel more comfortable having the lead / aggression. I'm sure this hand is +EV to coldcall with but alot of us would have a harder time figuring out what to do postflop so I default to 3 betting. Of course expecting to have the best hand is the biggest reason to 3 bet.

-DeathDonkey

Re: PF Stuff
 

In response to the debate on the SB hand...

I think the lack of position is actually the reason to 3-bet rather than CC here...By taking charge of the hand PF, your continuation bet on the flop actually means something, and you have your best chance of knocking Button off his hand early.

Re: PF Stuff
 

Is there any chance the fish folds to the 3-bet and you end up isolating yourself? Actually what am I saying? Nevermind.

Are you reading books again? I wish
 

you would stop that xxxx and just play. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I'd 3-bet AJo from either position and fold QJo from either.

As per your post below...I don't believe position has to be worth a full SB or more to make the difference though. I do believe position in this particular situation...that is likely 3 handed pot with a hand with unimproved showdown value...is worth somewhere in the neighborhood of ~.5 SB's. But with some hand...probably ATo I would draw the line and stop 3-betting from the SB while still 3-betting from the button. But I've had a few drinks tonight so maybe not.