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-   -   $11: JJ early game, interesting hand (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=408124)

12-31-2005 03:31 AM

$11: JJ early game, interesting hand
 
No reads on Villian, except that he is from Cape Cod and I chatted with a little at the beginning of the game (I have a summer house there).

Thoughts here? I think I actually like this line. Agree/disagree?


PartyPoker, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t800)
MP1 (t755)
MP2 (t1625)
MP3 (t800)
Hero (t790)
Button (t920)
SB (t755)
BB (t755)

Preflop: Hero is in CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls t15, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP1 folds</font>, MP2 calls t15, MP3 calls t15, <font color="red">Hero raises t175</font>, <font color="gray">Button folds</font>, <font color="gray">SB folds</font>, BB calls t160, UTG calls t160, <font color="gray">MP2 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP3 folds</font>

Flop: (t565) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks

Turn: (t565) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, <font color="red">UTG bets t75</font>, Hero calls t75, <font color="gray">BB folds</font>

River: (t715) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
<font color="red">UTG bets t125</font>, Hero calls t125

12-31-2005 03:37 AM

Re: $11: JJ early game, interesting hand
 
I am still pretty nubish and not 100% sure that I am qualified to give advice, but I would have bet half the pot on the flop for sure. I would have done this for two reasons.

1. It checks to see where my hand stands
2. I can take the pot down on the flop.

I if get called then I procede with extreme caution, mosty likey check/fold. But at the very least I won't be forced to make a somewhat difficult call on the river. Thats not the place to be.

12-31-2005 03:49 AM

Re: $11: JJ early game, interesting hand
 
Call me crazy but I think I prefer to call preflop here. Play for set value and maybe for overpair value. I hate building a huge pot knowing that a least a couple of these yahoos will call, leaving me in an odd situation post-flop not knowing if they hit a set or an overcard. [shrug]

12-31-2005 04:03 AM

Re: $11: JJ early game, interesting hand
 
[ QUOTE ]
Call me crazy but I think I prefer to call preflop here. Play for set value and maybe for overpair value. I hate building a huge pot knowing that a least a couple of these yahoos will call, leaving me in an odd situation post-flop not knowing if they hit a set or an overcard. [shrug]

[/ QUOTE ]

I can understand your reasoning, but at the 11$ the chodes love to slow play. If you bet out they are forced to make a call at the very least will look suspisious. Just a thought though.

12-31-2005 04:06 AM

Re: $11: JJ early game, interesting hand
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Call me crazy but I think I prefer to call preflop here. Play for set value and maybe for overpair value. I hate building a huge pot knowing that a least a couple of these yahoos will call, leaving me in an odd situation post-flop not knowing if they hit a set or an overcard. [shrug]

[/ QUOTE ]

I can understand your reasoning, but at the 11$ the chodes love to slow play. If you bet out they are forced to make a call at the very least will look suspisious. Just a thought though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Suspicious? Um, no. The donks won't even think twice to call your raise here with 89s or A8o. Just because they limp and call a raise doesn't mean aces.

At any rate, how much trouble can you get in by tossing in 15 chips and seeing the flop? I like keeping the pot small and staying out of trouble in a hand like this. I'm just trying to get to level 4 with 600+ chips.

caretaker1 12-31-2005 04:11 AM

Re: $11: JJ early game, interesting hand
 
Either take a small stab on the flop or don't put chips in. You've got no idea where you are when you're calling the turn and river.

12-31-2005 04:12 AM

Re: $11: JJ early game, interesting hand
 
I can see uclabruinz reasoning as well as ALReturns reasoning here. Anyone think my line is comepletely off base though?

45suited 12-31-2005 04:16 AM

Re: $11: JJ early game, interesting hand
 
Why such a massive raise PF? It's not like there's much out there worth taking down at that point, so one of three things is going to happen:

1) You win a very small pot pre-flop and basically waste your jacks. Yippee.

2) You get called and the flop comes with an overcard(s) and you are faced with tough flop decisions in a big pot.

3) You get called and your jacks are an overpair to the flop. You likely have the best hand, unless villian flopped a set or slowplayed an overpair.

Scenarios 1 and 2 are more likely to happen than scenario 3, and neither 1 nor 2 are particularly great.

SO, I either limp PF or I raise smaller, keep the pot manageable. I really hate the huge PF raise here.

12-31-2005 04:20 AM

Re: $11: JJ early game, interesting hand
 
I disagree with a small raise here. That doesn't do anything except build the pot, which is not what I want with my JJ. I am trying to isolate with that raise. In that situation, I like either limping and playing the flop cautiously, or betting enough to isolate my hand pre-flop.

45suited 12-31-2005 04:28 AM

Re: $11: JJ early game, interesting hand
 
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with a small raise here. That doesn't do anything except build the pot, which is not what I want with my JJ. I am trying to isolate with that raise. In that situation, I like either limping and playing the flop cautiously, or betting enough to isolate my hand pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say to make a pot sweetening raise, but you could have easily raised to ~100 and accmomplished the same thing w/o committing yourself so much to the hand. As it is now, the pot is so large and you have little maneuverability due to your stack size.

12-31-2005 01:40 PM

Re: $11: JJ early game, interesting hand
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Call me crazy but I think I prefer to call preflop here. Play for set value and maybe for overpair value. I hate building a huge pot knowing that a least a couple of these yahoos will call, leaving me in an odd situation post-flop not knowing if they hit a set or an overcard. [shrug]

[/ QUOTE ]

I can understand your reasoning, but at the 11$ the chodes love to slow play. If you bet out they are forced to make a call at the very least will look suspisious. Just a thought though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Suspicious? Um, no. The donks won't even think twice to call your raise here with 89s or A8o. Just because they limp and call a raise doesn't mean aces.

At any rate, how much trouble can you get in by tossing in 15 chips and seeing the flop? I like keeping the pot small and staying out of trouble in a hand like this. I'm just trying to get to level 4 with 600+ chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a mis-understanding, I was talking about betting ON the flop and you were talking about CALLING pf as apposed to raising. I could see that for sure, but I don't mind the raise from the CO with limpers from EP, unless they are being really tricky with a high PP then you most likely have the best hand. If you get chodes to call your raise with A8 or 9-8s then that must be +ev for you if you have jacks. I would be much more scared of a mini raise from UTG. BTW I don't think that the line is completely off, but I still think that a flop bet is the best way to determine where you stand.

45suited 12-31-2005 02:02 PM

Re: $11: JJ early game, interesting hand
 
[ QUOTE ]
BTW I don't think that the line is completely off, but I still think that a flop bet is the best way to determine where you stand.

[/ QUOTE ]

See that's the problem with his huge pre-flop raise. There was not significant money in the pot at that point, so all he did is create a huge pot (if called) that is difficult to play in the (common) event that overs fall.

After his raise, he was down to t615 with, significantly, two callers. The pot size was already t565 at that point. Any real C-bet is going to take a very large chunk of his remaining stack, and to me, with two callers of the huge PF raise, it's too likely that one of them checked an ace.

As the hand played out, I like the way he played it post flop. But again, I don't see the point of such a huge raise pre-flop. There are times when I'll push JJ pre-flop. (In fact, I made a post about it yesterday. 'JJ facing a nuisance raiser'.) But the situation here is very different. A raise to ~100 or a call pre-flop would have been much better, IMO.

12-31-2005 02:09 PM

Re: $11: JJ early game, interesting hand
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BTW I don't think that the line is completely off, but I still think that a flop bet is the best way to determine where you stand.

[/ QUOTE ]

See that's the problem with his huge pre-flop raise. There was not significant money in the pot at that point, so all he did is create a huge pot (if called) that is difficult to play in the (common) event that overs fall.

After his raise, he was down to t615 with, significantly, two callers. The pot size was already t565 at that point. Any real C-bet is going to take a very large chunk of his remaining stack, and to me, with two callers of the huge PF raise, it's too likely that one of them checked an ace.

As the hand played out, I like the way he played it post flop. But again, I don't see the point of such a huge raise pre-flop. There are times when I'll push JJ pre-flop. (In fact, I made a post about it yesterday. 'JJ facing a nuisance raiser'.) But the situation here is very different. A raise to ~100 or a call pre-flop would have been much better, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

AHHHH that does make alot more sense. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Well I still learning to.

12-31-2005 02:13 PM

Re: $11: JJ early game, interesting hand
 
Jacks get me into trouble so often at the 11's that I'm beginning to think that limping and playing for set value is the safest, most trouble free way to play in this situation.

I, too, have made the common mistake of building a big pot by raising too much PF. Jacks just aren't strong enough to do this at the 11's with these monkeys calling 4-5x BB raises w/A-6o.

Each time you think about hammering a bunch of limpers PF with your Jacks, repeat to yourself, "Overs are coming more than half the time on the flop and one or more of these goons are gonna have one." Who wants to be stuck in this situation? Not me. I learned my lesson. And I'm pretty sure that 45suited up above here is the one who taught me.

45suited 12-31-2005 02:20 PM

Re: $11: JJ early game, interesting hand
 
Don't get me wrong. JJ is a great hand. I think that there are times that I play them much stronger than a lot of players.

Say it's level 3, UTG mini-raises, gets a call, and I'm on the button with JJ. My chip stack is 1000. Insta push for me. Often when other people say, 'call and see a flop', I have no problem pushing JJ. It is a very strong hand.

I just don't agree with massively raising with it on level one just to pick up a tiny amount of chips, like the OP did in this case.

12-31-2005 02:29 PM

Re: $11: JJ early game, interesting hand
 
No, no misunderstanding. I love to look down and see Jacks level 3 and later. Just saying you helped me understand why I shouldn't be building a big pot with them early in a full ring. For me, there's far better spots than this to be risking a large percentage of my stack.


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