Re: PokerSpot and Dutch
 

reasking my question - I'm sure Mason and probably David have seen Russ since the whole thing occurred. How did you/they react?

Re: PokerSpot and Dutch
 

Thanks for letting me relive this.

I lost considerably less than you did, but it was still very frustrating. I suspect that pokerspot did a great deal of damage to the initial growth of online poker.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

Re: PokerSpot and Dutch
 

Looks like the “Where’s the substance?” crew has nothing to say here. How nice.

Has anyone ever seen or heard of any bankruptcy filing by PokerSpot? When a company files bankruptcy, the remaining company assets are divided among the company’s creditors. The owner/CEO does not walk off with those assets and try to sell them elsewhere; there is a word for that – and it’s a word someone who has a law degree should know.

Re: PokerSpot and Dutch
 

As to the bankruptcy..i think the whole reason he was allowed to skate and abuse his responsibility was because he was an off-shore operator.

Bubs

Re: PokerSpot and Dutch
 

As my name suggests, I have a law degree. The magic word you are looking for is conversion.

For a company, there are 2 types of bankruptcy. The first is Chapter 7 which liquidates everything and pays in a statutory priority, with unsecured creditors (Sorry MS and the rest, that's you) getting paid last. Usually but not always that's zero or close to it.

Chapter 11 is an attempt to continue the business going forward, with a trustee assigned to manage the assets. Unsecured are given a written "plan" (yes, that's actually the legal term) proposing to pay a fraction of the debt, and there is time to object to the plan. The bankruptcy judge makes the final call, and when the plan is finished, the remainder of the debt is wiped clean, and the business moves forward.

If either bankruptcy was filed, MS and the rest would know because they would be listed as unsecured creditors and given notice. What I find a much more interesting legal question is whether certain deposited funds could be classified as held in trust and illegally converted, which would not be dischargeable in bankruptcy in most instances (like poker, it depends. That's not the point here). I don't know the answer to that question off the top of my head.

I couldn't find a bankruptcy filing on the computer system known as PACER, which is where it would show up. But b/c it's a pay as you go site, I didn't try all that hard so I can't say one way or another. If significant interest from the zoo, I'll eat the cost and do a thorough search but my guess is they just closed up shop.

Re: PokerSpot and Dutch
 

[ QUOTE ]
Looks like the “Where’s the substance?” crew has nothing to say here. How nice.

Has anyone ever seen or heard of any bankruptcy filing by PokerSpot? When a company files bankruptcy, the remaining company assets are divided among the company’s creditors. The owner/CEO does not walk off with those assets and try to sell them elsewhere; there is a word for that – and it’s a word someone who has a law degree should know.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know the word and I don't have a law degree, but you are exactly right.

Re: PokerSpot and Dutch
 

[ QUOTE ]
The magic word you are looking for is conversion.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, but I think Terry was looking for fraudulent transfer.

Re: PokerSpot and Dutch
 

[ QUOTE ]

If either bankruptcy was filed, MS and the rest would know because they would be listed as unsecured creditors and given notice. What I find a much more interesting legal question is whether certain deposited funds could be classified as held in trust and illegally converted, which would not be dischargeable in bankruptcy in most instances (like poker, it depends. That's not the point here). I don't know the answer to that question off the top of my head.


[/ QUOTE ]

Does any of this matter if Dutch runs the company offshore?

Re: PokerSpot and Dutch
 

A very good point on the offshore. Different laws would apply to the company. I wasn't thinking it through all the way earlier.

Fraudulent transfer would relate to selling the asset at a reduced rate (less than fair market value) to a third party, usually classified as an insider, to retain the value of the asset after a bankruptcy. There are laws to overturn these transactions.

Conversion is if he had appropriated the asset for himself, like keeping a company car rather than liquidated its value and putting the funds into the estate.

Either way, you don't need a lawyer to tell you it ain't right.

Re: PokerSpot and Dutch
 

how long did it take you to win 56k? what limits, and how many tables? i don't even remember pokerspot being around for that long.