15/30 questions
 

2/4 to 15/30 in 75 days?

1) Is it possible to win 2/100 over the long term, being a quite competitive player for this limit (top 12%)?

2) Is there good table selection available at 15/30 full ring?

3) Is it possible to play 8 tables silmultaneously at 15/30?

Sorry if this would best belong in small stakes. Sorry that it's probably been asked like 100 times already. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

--Dave.

Re: 15/30 questions
 

It's possible, if you've already established a good ability for poker and the desire to see this thing through.

8-tabling 15/30 is certainly possible. I don't think you could win more than 2BB/100 8-tabling it though. I'd recommend looking on multiple sites if you're looking for the ability to ubertable 15/30+, as the selection dries up quite a bit at one or another.

What limits have you proven yourself to be a winner at so far?

Rob

Re: 15/30 questions
 

There are plenty of good 15/30 tables. I would invest $30 into PartyMine and mine each level before you move up.

Re: 15/30 questions
 

Well I hope it is possible as I just made the move myself [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I started seriously playing on Jan 1st of this year after mostly being a bonus whore before that. I read SSH and began my journey on $2/4. I played about 90k hands and ran around 2.75bb/100 overall. I ran about 3.4bb/100 since June though, once I learned the art of thet semi-steal, blind steal, and blind defense. Thanks in large part to this post by Evan - Some general thoughts on blind stealing and the links inside it, especially the one by Nate on his 15 blind stealing experiment.

As of Dec. 10th I made the jump from 2/4 directly to 15/30. I was going to try 3/6, 5/10, and 10/20 first, but they are all mostly short handed games and I didn't want to have to pick up this new style, so I just said eff it. I was a little underolled for the 15 as I made some major withdrawals for xmas, but after watching the games and mining I felt I could beat it. So I took my 7k and said lets rock.

So far I've logged in about 10k hands and have ran around 2.5bb/100. Obviously these stats are rather meaningless at this point, but I have felt VERY comfortable at the level. There are definitely some adjustments to be made for aggression, but once you get a feel for it, it is not bad at all. I also make sure to practice very good table selection and there are very few times I play at a table w/o several fish and stats on everyone else. Also, the buddy list is your friend [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

With the good table selection the most games I have had going at once is 7, but I average around 3 tables as I don't mess around with lame TAG tables.

So that is my story and it seems like you are in a fairly similar boat. Good luck and keep us informed. I'll do the same.

Re: 15/30 questions
 

I've done about 2.85/100 at 2/4 while 8-tabling...

I'm not 100% sure if I can do this, but I'd like to give it a shot.

Thanks for the heads-up on winrate stuff, and "site selection", though.

OOC, can I expect my SD/100 to change at 15/30? That has the potential to dramatically change bankroll requirements (to the point where 15k will not be good enough), as does moving my winrate below 2/100.

--Dave.

Re: 15/30 questions
 

Thanks for your response, bro. Good luck! I'll read those posts.

--Dave.

Re: 15/30 questions
 

Your post has inspired me to take a stab at 15/30. I play 5/10 now and will move up as soon as I'm rolled (it will take some time). But I can't see why you so desperately need to play 8 tables at each limits. I think that might lead to your downfall.

Re: 15/30 questions
 

I'm sure you can. Personally, it took me about 6-months but I also spent a very long time at 5/10 and 10/20 6-max. My bankroll was large enough much earlier.

Re: 15/30 questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would invest $30 into PartyMine and mine each level before you move up

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to hijack this for a moment, but I am curious. Once you have tens of thousands of hands mined at the level, how is the data used while you are 8 tabling? I guess I am asking how you use it to make decisions when you have a couple of seconds per table to act.

Re: 15/30 questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would invest $30 into PartyMine and mine each level before you move up

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to hijack this for a moment, but I am curious. Once you have tens of thousands of hands mined at the level, how is the data used while you are 8 tabling? I guess I am asking how you use it to make decisions when you have a couple of seconds per table to act.

[/ QUOTE ]
You use a HUD like PokerAce.

Re: 15/30 questions
 

what is partymine and how is it different than just datamining the old fashion way?

Re: 15/30 questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
what is partymine and how is it different than just datamining the old fashion way?

[/ QUOTE ]
Partymine is a program that will keep 10 tables open at whatever limit and with however number of players on it you want. If the number of players drops below your minimum the table is closed and a new one opened.

Re: 15/30 questions
 

David, you already have the bankroll for 15-30. I wouldn't bother with stopping at the limits in between. Just set yourself up for the expectations of winning and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, losing more than you are used to.

Move to the 15-30, get adjusted, and don't turn into a LAG as a lot of people taking their first steps into 15-30 land are wont to do.

You will see that a lot more hands do not go to showdown, you will be 3-bet with AQo very often and mid-pairs down to 77 routinely. You will be put in more positions where putting in a value raise isn't truely as valuable as keeping your opponent around for more bets (the first time you wait to raise your overpair on the turn and get a fold, you will see this).

You will also get to know the biggest fish on a first-name basis and learn to seek them out and never be bothered when they put beats on you (and privately cheer them on when they are getting short-stacked and are in a hand against another player).

If you take a big hit financially, drop down to the 10-20. You'll be amazed how soft it will feel and you will crush it and be back at the 15-30 in no time.

- Jim

Re: 15/30 questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you take a big hit financially, drop down to the 10-20. You'll be amazed how soft it will feel and you will crush it and be back at the 15-30 in no time.


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sure this question has been answered about a zillion times, but is there a big differance between 10/20 and 15/30?

Re: 15/30 questions
 

I've only played about 13k hands at 15/30 but I don't think so. Other than the fact that it is full ring and I played 10/20 6-max.

Re: 15/30 questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would invest $30 into PartyMine and mine each level before you move up

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to hijack this for a moment, but I am curious. Once you have tens of thousands of hands mined at the level, how is the data used while you are 8 tabling? I guess I am asking how you use it to make decisions when you have a couple of seconds per table to act.

[/ QUOTE ]
I use it for table election first off since I can go to a table and not see a bunch of unknowns. Then I use PA HUD.

Re: 15/30 questions
 

The aggression level is generally less at 10-20 from my experience, which makes decisions easier and less costly.

- Jim

Re: 15/30 questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
2/4 to 15/30 in 75 days?

1) Is it possible to win 2/100 over the long term, being a quite competitive player for this limit (top 12%)?

2) Is there good table selection available at 15/30 full ring?

3) Is it possible to play 8 tables silmultaneously at 15/30?

Sorry if this would best belong in small stakes. Sorry that it's probably been asked like 100 times already. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

--Dave.

[/ QUOTE ]

Speaking from my own experience number 2BB/100 an hour would be an extroadinary win rate over the long term (by which I mean hundreds of thousands of hands). The game selection is not that outstanding and 8 tables would be practically impossible. There is a big difference between 8 tabling 2/4 vs 15/30. The players at 15/30 are going to force you make more tough decisions which will require your attention.

Your results may vary.

Re: 15/30 questions
 

I really disagree with most of what you said. I think when going up in limits it is VERY important to take it in stages. Moving up from 2/4 to 15/30 with no stops in between just because you are rolled for the 15/30 is a bad idea.

When you move up in a limit you pick up different skills you didn't need to have to beat the limit before. Just skipping all these limits will cause you to miss some skills you will probably need to beat the 15/30.

Also I highly recommend the OP play the 6-max 5/10 and 10/20 games. This is because in those games a lot more pots are blind(s) vs opener (compared to 3/6 and 2/4) putting you in a lot more marginal situations as is the case for the 15/30. I would also like to add that I think the OP quest is possible though kinda of diffucult. You would have to run well and not have a extended break even stretch. Good luck.

SGS

Re: 15/30 questions
 

I understand what you are saying. I'm in the move up as fast as your roll will carry you camp though.

Will he have to move down after taking a few lumps? Very possibly, maybe likely.

Will he learn his ass off and challenge himself? Obsolutely if he approches the game with the right mind-set.

It's not like he just crossed the $9k threshold, he has more than enough roll to play the game. I hope that I'm in the 30/60 game before my roll hits $36k.

If his financial situation depends on his poker earn, then I completely agree with you though. I should have said that to begin with.

- Jim

Re: 15/30 questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is because in those games a lot more pots are blind(s) vs opener (compared to 3/6 and 2/4)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to address this issue.

In s/s 2, harman talks about playing hands like t8, jt, t9, 86, etc. from the blind.

She doesn't mention if they're suited, so I'm assuming that they're not, and that she defends blinds very liberally.

Does this seem to make sense? (I'm not asking if it's correct play, I'm just asking if I have to add "suited" to every hand she's talking about, when I'm trying to understand what her opinion is on correct play).

Re: 15/30 questions
 

Thanks. Now I get it.

Re: 15/30 questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is because in those games a lot more pots are blind(s) vs opener (compared to 3/6 and 2/4)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to address this issue.

In s/s 2, harman talks about playing hands like t8, jt, t9, 86, etc. from the blind.

She doesn't mention if they're suited, so I'm assuming that they're not, and that she defends blinds very liberally.

Does this seem to make sense? (I'm not asking if it's correct play, I'm just asking if I have to add "suited" to every hand she's talking about, when I'm trying to understand what her opinion is on correct play).

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes I believe she means unsuited. Defending with hands like that is good because they are less likely to be dominated than a hand like say K6 and are easy to let go from after the flop.

Re: 15/30 questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would invest $30 into PartyMine and mine each level before you move up.

[/ QUOTE ]
Note that there is a good chance that the new version of the Party client software will be rolled out before before your 75 days are up, at which point PartyMine will be useless since you won't be able to gather stats on observed hands anymore.

Re: 15/30 questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would invest $30 into PartyMine and mine each level before you move up.

[/ QUOTE ]
Note that there is a good chance that the new version of the Party client software will be rolled out before before your 75 days are up, at which point PartyMine will be useless since you won't be able to gather stats on observed hands anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]
Really? Can we still use old party software to mine? Why did party decide to stop allowing gathering of stats for observed hands?

Re: 15/30 questions
 

there was an announcement a while ago, not sure where the zoo thread on it is. IMO the likelihood of them letting you play on an older version without upgrading is small

Re: 15/30 questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would invest $30 into PartyMine and mine each level before you move up.

[/ QUOTE ]
Note that there is a good chance that the new version of the Party client software will be rolled out before before your 75 days are up, at which point PartyMine will be useless since you won't be able to gather stats on observed hands anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, well that sucks.

Re: 15/30 questions
 

I want to throw my 2 cents in here in case you missed my experience of the same

I did the exact same thing for the same reasons as sack up. I was underrolled for the move. I had decided to take 150BB to the game and go for it. After my 75BB 1st day, I thought I was set. Then, I proceeded to go on the largest and quickest downswing of my career. Very unfortunate and ridiculous consecutive suckouts. AA 10 times which were capped and more than 4 handed 7 times. I won none of those seven hands. After that, I moved back down.

I'm confident I can beat that level. I was playing about 4 tables on average, but never more than 7. I was about 17/11, but I think I could have trimmed that up some to make for less variance when starting. Inside the Poker mind has some nice thoughts on moving into mid limits that I think is pretty good advice. And, FWIW, I'm quite certain my winrate would NOT be 2.0 at 15/30. Given the players I saw there, I was thinking I could win somewhere in the mid 1s...maybe 1.2-1.7. And yes, given the aggressive nature of the opponents, I would imagine that the SD would increase. It seems the TAGS are better TAGS, and the fish are people that are just there to gamble, but have a good feel for when to bluff raise and so forth...the 38/18/2 types.

My personal decision now is that I will no longer move to a level where I can't lose 300BB and continue playing. This way I'm not subject to the cruel timing of the poker gods.

On a side note, I'm at 5/10 right now working my way back up there. Really the 5/10 game is filling up more. There generally seem to be over 20 tables available at party with plenty of fish.

So, that's where I'm at with that. Of course, you do want you want, but I'm not going back to 15/30 until I can light $9k on fire and keep playing my game there.

Good luck to you whatever your decision.

Re: 15/30 questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was playing about 4 tables on average, but never more than 7.

[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't this awfully much when taking a stab at a new limit underrolled? I even think it's too much when you got a 300BB bankroll and are planning to get adjust to a new level. I know it is too much for me anyhow and I plan to move to 15/30 from 5/10when rolled. Did you feel comfortable making a giant move in limits playing 4-7 tables?

Re: 15/30 questions
 

If you have the roll for the 10-20, I don't see the reason to not play it instead of waiting. The 15-30 isn't a poker paradise of players just giving their money away.

- Jim

Re: 15/30 questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
Did you feel comfortable making a giant move in limits playing 4-7 tables?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I did. 4-tabling was a vacation for me.

Re: 15/30 questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
You will also get to know the biggest fish on a first-name basis and learn to seek them out and never be bothered when they put beats on you (and privately cheer them on when they are getting short-stacked and are in a hand against another player).


[/ QUOTE ]

Haha, I do this all the time!

Re: 15/30 questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
I plan to move to 15/30 from 5/10 when rolled.

[/ QUOTE ]

Consider moving to 10/20 first. The game is really soft but it plays closer to the 15 than it goes to the 5.

Re: 15/30 questions
 

Yea, really. Why skip 10/20? That's just about one of the most profitable games on party (talking 6-max here).

Re: 15/30 questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you have the roll for the 10-20, I don't see the reason to not play it instead of waiting. The 15-30 isn't a poker paradise of players just giving their money away.

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually I have the roll for 15/30, but somehow I would feel more comfortable getting the roll by earning the roll from successfull 5/10 play. Yet I'm only up ~200BB by playing 5/10 ~20k hands.

I think I'll move up playing both 10/20 and 15/30, picking the best tables between them. Isn't it more 15/30 than 10/20 because of the shorthanded 10/20-tables?

Re: 15/30 questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yea, really. Why skip 10/20? That's just about one of the most profitable games on party (talking 6-max here).

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not playing much 6-handed. Do you think it's crucial to play some 6-max before moving up or is it enough beating 5/10 full?

Re: 15/30 questions
 

There are always plenty of great 10/20 full/9-max games going.

Re: 15/30 questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yea, really. Why skip 10/20? That's just about one of the most profitable games on party (talking 6-max here).

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not playing much 6-handed. Do you think it's crucial to play some 6-max before moving up or is it enough beating 5/10 full?

[/ QUOTE ]

6-max is critical, imo.

Re: 15/30 questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yea, really. Why skip 10/20? That's just about one of the most profitable games on party (talking 6-max here).

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not playing much 6-handed. Do you think it's crucial to play some 6-max before moving up or is it enough beating 5/10 full?

[/ QUOTE ]

6-max is critical, imo.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've played some 3/6 6-max, but not much. i think I'll stop by playing some 5/10 6-max before moving up. Thanks for the advice!