Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

Down to the final 8 in Super Tuesday.

Payouts

1st: $35532
2nd: $19796
3rd: $13536
4th: $10152
5th: $8460
6th: $6768
7th: $5076
8th: $3384

Stacks

UTG: t143275
UTG+1: t35187
Hero: t109062
MP: t62936
CO: t53909
Button: t178686
SB: t177020
Villain: t367925

Reads

Villain had been playing very aggressively since accumulating chips - raising most hands pre-flop. I hadn't played too many hands at the final table other than a couple of SB v BB steals. He and I played on a previous table where I only showed down good hands so I figured he knows I'm not on a pure steal here.

Hand

Blinds 4000/8000

2 folds, hero has A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and raises to t22000. All fold to the villain who calls t14000.

Pot: t48,000

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Villain bets t15000. Action is on the hero.

There is now t63000 in the pot and I have t87062 behind.

I'm not sure about the pre-flop raise given the shorter stacks at the table. And I'm not sure what to make of his bet or how I should play the hand out. I do think he bet an amount that commits all of my chips. If I call here I'm pretty committed to the hand so I did think his bet could possibly be a cheap way to put me to the test.

Thoughts?

Re: Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

I don't claim to be an expert at final table situations at all being that I have only been to a handful of them, but I just don't think you want to mess with the chipleader here with 3 stacks shorter than you if you fold, which means at the very least one and most likely two will go out before you even if you don't pick anything up soon. That's $2-3k in real money almost guaranteed by folding here. I think there is a better spot to get your money in than with that flop against the chipleader.

Re: Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

With his chip lead, he could be calling with any two cards from the BB and has a 1/3 chance of hitting the flop in some way. I'd be calling your raise in his position and I would be putting you on face cards or an ace with a decent kicker, I wouldn't be putting you on a high pair. So I would bet in his position whatever the flop and betting that sort of level (committing all of your chips not mine).
In essence, you might be the favourite but you've got no way of knowing. A re-raise here would either see him fold if he's got no pair and no draw but he'd have to have absolutely nothing not to call it. I don't think it's worth the risk. But, then, I would be happy with a higher place. I wouldn't be playing for first place, unless the cards let me.
You could call and hope for one of your many outs but if it doesn't hit on the turn, IMO, you're going to do your table image no favours by folding on fourth - they'll be better draws to chase.

Re: Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

bah crappy spot.. i think i'd fold, he might be making a move on you, or maybe he cought a peice of the board and is willing to go to showdown with it. I think the problem here is play ATo w/ that stack size. Maybe i'm being too tight, but w/ a stack that size i think i'm probably folding there.

Re: Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

I think he does this with almost any hand. He called a raise, but he could probably call a raise with any two. Now? Fold or straight up gamble and push/raise. I'd probably fold, since I'd still have 87k which is plenty for now.

That said. I would open fold the AT. Chip leader will be able to put you in this position too often while risking relatively little of his stack. You have no idea what the chip leader has. He could have T9, mid pair, top pair, a set, two pair, air..., etc. I would rather spend 22k raising with absolute trash against a better target. Pick on someone your own size. I feel risking 1/5 your stack against the far and away chip leader is not getting the most out of your stack. You're pricing yourself in to call MP and CO if they push and you'll almost always be dominated by their hands and you can't really call any other push. An option I like is open limping for value, trying to hit something. There's probably a good chance it gets folded around and if you pair up, you'll probably get some money out of an aggressive chip leader.

Re: Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

This is why you shouldn't play AT pre flop against him. He will make a play no matter what he has and you can't defend unless you hit your hand hard. Go against all others, especially No 2 and 3.

Re: Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

Call.

He's testing you, and his range is wide (and you may improve on the turn)

If he fires again on the turn and you don't improve you can safely fold, but having an aggro player lead out at me doesn't tell me he has me beat, it tells me hes aggro.

A call is probably the best option beacuse:

1) firiring two barrells with nothing can be tough, even for an aggro chipleader

2) if he checks the turn and you bet, two things can happen, he can raise (easy muck), or flat call and then you are to the river while being the aggressor so if he bets the river you can easily muck. If he checks the river and you have not improved, you probably have to check behind as he has called twice on a board that's not too drawish, so he probably calling here.

If you raise his flop lead and he calls, you are now in the position of either:

1) Betting the turn, which is now a much bigger bet given the size of the pot. If he calls you are probably beat and shouldn't put in more chips on the river unimproved, but now this line has cost a ton

2) Check the turn. This will look weak and he will probably fire at the river, to which you have to fold unimproved. Probably not a bad idea as you get two cards to improve, but you will certainly face a river bet and may lay down best hand.

I like a call here, especially since he didn't raise PF, and calls look scarier than raises, especially here, and are cheaper too, and may get you a free river, should you decide to take it.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

Your table images sucks. You raised the chip leaders blind, he played back at you... and you have now donked off 20% of your stack. FOLD and pushbot the rest of the way.

GG

Re: Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

Are those comments more on the pre-flop side? What about on the flop?

Re: Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

What about pre-flop?

On the flop, maybe we can call and get away from it on the turn. But certainly if we raise we're pot committed given our stack size.

Re: Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

I like calling here also. His bet is a "put to the test" bet, and he could just as easily have a made hand as not. I dont like raising bc it risks too much and gains to little. I think you can pass his test with a call just as easily as a raise. good line.

Re: Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

I am not crazy about raising the tournament leader's blinds with AT either.

However, now that you got there, I don't like folding. He might call the raise and lead the flop with a probing bet with anything. This is a flop that is likely to hit a lot of hands, but villain could easily just have a piece of it.

I think you have to atleast call the weak bet with your gutshot and overcard.

However, I like a push. You are a 7-3 dog against Qx or Jx, 4-1 dog against QJ or AQ, and a 5-1 dog agisnt 66. There is a lot of money in the pot. Even if villain has a pair, you are not that chip EV- with pot odds. Villain may have nothing and probably can't call with second pair. I think semibluff push is a good play.

Look at it from villain's perspective. You raised the ship leader's blinds. Couldn't you have AA, KK, QQ, JJ, 66, AQ, or KQ? It's hard for him to call a push without atleast top pair.

Re: Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

[ QUOTE ]

What about pre-flop?

On the flop, maybe we can call and get away from it on the turn. But certainly if we raise we're pot committed given our stack size.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, which makes a call that much more attractive, especially if it gets us a free river.

PF I'm kinda meh.....I think folding ATs is a little weak tight, but you are raising the chip leader's BB so usually like to have a bigger gun than ATs.

If you flopped a flush draw with overs and he leads and you push, he folds or calls and you beat him you're brilliant, with this flop you're not.

If I *know* I'm getting played with, I really don't like AT.....but dammit its sooooted.....50/50.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

I was watching this and I believe your biggest mistake was going in to your time bank. Even as a bystander I figured you were trying to to decide on whether or not to bluff. If you immediately went all in I do not think he could have called you.

Re: Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

Without reading the other comments yet:

This is a bad raise that I would easily open fold, not just because the BB is a huge stack but because the button/SB are also large. You want nothing to do with what's essentially a steal raise here.

So you get called and he underbets the QJx flop. I think you have an average of maybe 5 outs here, but what you do depends on his play. Calling sucks because you're going to be facing another bet on the turn, so IMO, this is a very quick push or a quick fold (keeping in mind in order for the push to work, you have to know he's bluffing/won't call over 50%). There's not really an in between.

Re: Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

Here's my two cents.

Preflop against the chip leaders blind, esp. an aggressive one,
if I play this hand, which I probably would I open push. If you open raise conventionally he will call with a lot of hands and you'll whiff most times and it's easy for you to be outplayed from the flop.

Given the way you played the hand with his small flop bet I
either fold or I push. I don't like calling. It appears weak and with your chip stack if he has anything a turn bet will not move him. By pushing you have a fair amount of FE,
so take advantage of it.

Bruce

Re: Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I *know* I'm getting played with, I really don't like AT.....but dammit its sooooted.....50/50.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hero has ATo here. I thought it was suited at first too. I think considering the payouts I would open-fold here. I could open-raise maybe in MP3 since I'm in a slightly better position and since I'm not dealing with the bigstack's blinds.

Re: Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's my two cents.

Preflop against the chip leaders blind, esp. an aggressive one,
if I play this hand, which I probably would I open push. If you open raise conventionally he will call with a lot of hands and you'll whiff most times and it's easy for you to be outplayed from the flop.

Given the way you played the hand with his small flop bet I
either fold or I push. I don't like calling. It appears weak and with your chip stack if he has anything a turn bet will not move him. By pushing you have a fair amount of FE,
so take advantage of it.

Bruce

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like the raise. What do you do if you are reraised? With 2 big stacks in the blinds, you are unlikely to steal the blinds with a small raise.

Preflop, a push is borderline with 12xBB no ante into 5 players. I think the push is probably slightly chip EV+. I wouldn't necessarily fold preflop. Pushing or limping may be better, but I don't like the raise.

When the tournament leader calls in the BB and makes a weak lead, easy push. He might play that way with anything. You are getting 1.7-1 pot odds and you are a 2.3-1 dog to a pair. You probably have a lot of folding equity, so push.

I don't think flat calling is that bad. Villain made a small bet, so you can call and draw to your 7 outs, 4 of them nut outs. I wouldn't fold.

Re: Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

This obviously was a tough hand, not only because it knocked me out but because I just didn't know what to do with it at any stage. 8-handed, essentially in middle position I thought it was pretty weak to fold especially given that I hadn't played too many hands and my raise has to mean something.

On the flop, I figured he had anywhere from two pair (QJ) to a middle pair to a draw to a complete bluff. I went in the tank and pushed figuring my Ace was possibly live plus the 4 outs to Broadway. Afterwards I figured that he'd have to fold at least 30% of the time to make a push worthwhile given that I was probably at best a 3 to 1 dog if called.

He called me with JT. I was a bit surprised by that. It was an insta-call in fact. Yeah, he was the chip leader but I still had enough chips to damage his stack. As one poster said, I did go into the tank and wondered how that was perceived. But for me, even if I had an overpair I'd pause and think about for a little bit before committing all my chips against such a funny bet. I think he took my hesitation as weakness (rightfully so, of course). So it was either a great read or a horrible play by him - funny how a lot of situations end up that way. Just like someone playing a hand in such a way that they have absolutely nothing or the nuts.

I wasn't on tilt during this hand as I had actually gone from about 18k in chips to over 100k in the span of about 20 hands taking advantage of a lot of tight play at my table when down to 20 players. But it was late in the evening and I think me being up for quite awhile impacted my decision. In hindsight I think this was a fold pre-flop because of the shorter stacks who could bust and move me up in the money, and the bigger stacks in the blind who could bust me. Tommy Angelo talks about "tiltless poker" and this is an example - I should have done things to increase the liklihood that I was sharp and focused on the decisions at hand.

Re: Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

You were a 7-3 dog not a 3-1 dog. The push was fine. You had pot odds and FE.

Rather than saying I have ATo I can't fold it, you should be looking at whether the hand is useful to you in this situation. I play a lot of supersatllites and I fold good hands and push with junk all the time.

Raising 2.75xBB into the big stacks' blinds seems strange. Did you consider pusing or limping?

12xBB is a difficult stack to play without antes. Also, I don't mind playing a little tight and move up while some shorter stacks bust.

I don't think ATo is that great a hand that I mind folding it that much. Pushing preflop may be slightly chip EV+, but I would fold and wait for a better opportunity.

Re: Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

I agree with you 100%, this is a tough hand to play. AT
is about as difficult with your stack to play as a medium
pocket pair.

After reading all the responses perhaps the best play is not to play the hand to begin with. If I had a hand like pocket Sixes or Sevens I would probably pass. However, I still think if you're going to play the hand the most effective way is with a push. With the villians large stack I don't think your raise has much of a chance of taking down the blinds. If you pushed you probably would have lost any way so it wouldn't have made any difference
anyway.

Bruce

Re: Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you 100%, this is a tough hand to play. AT
is about as difficult with your stack to play as a medium
pocket pair.

After reading all the responses perhaps the best play is not to play the hand to begin with. If I had a hand like pocket Sixes or Sevens I would probably pass. However, I still think if you're going to play the hand the most effective way is with a push. With the villians large stack I don't think your raise has much of a chance of taking down the blinds. If you pushed you probably would have lost any way so it wouldn't have made any difference
anyway.

Bruce

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case, if you pushed, JT would definately have folded in the BB. That is very results oriented.

I agree that pushing or folding preflop was best here. However, I don't think the push is chip EV+. You are pushing into 5 players. There is about a 25% chance someone has you dominated, in which case you lose an average of 5xBB. Say you pick up the blinds the other 75% of the time and gain 1.5xBB. On average, you lose .05xBB. I may be a little off, but it is pretty close to an even gamble. The problem with pushing with AT is you get called pretty much if and only if you are dominated.

I don't think you want to gamble here. Picking up some blinds or doubling up are not particularly advantageous. Maybe let some short stacks bust out. This also goes into my "retarded" red zone theory. Maybe, it's OK to fall into the red zone where you can play more aggressively.

I am not saying just folding to move up in prizes or throw away chips to move into the red zone, but why gamble here?

Now you mention a medium pp. Pushing any pair 22-TT here is chip EV+. It is much less likely that anyone has a higher pair and you are ahead plus pot odds against AK-AQ. If you push with 22, you are unlikely to be called by 55. You have plenty of odds to push with a pp. I might fold a small pp, even though it is slightly chip EV+. I think this is a situation where you do not particularly want to make a big gamble.

I am definately pushing with 77-TT. JJ is too good to push with. I would push with 22 if it was a strategic situation where I wanted to gamble. Pushing with 22 is clearly better than pushing with ATo.

Part of the lesson here is that you just have to learn to throw away a decent hand when it doesn't help you. For example, I have improved my game by folding small pairs and AJo, KQo in early position sometimes. I used to always just limp with them. Sometimes you can represent a big hand by raising or limping with a hand like that, but in a lot of situations you are better off folding.

Re: Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

This is also an interesting hand from the big stack's perspective. I think he played it rather donkishly. Pre-flop, the call is fine as the raise is under 3xBB and JT is a fairly solid hand. But on the flop, his bet is completely pointless as it accomplishes virtually nothing. It doesn't define where you're at in the hand because it's such a small bet that many players will raise just b/c it seems so weak. Then, when he does get raised, he instacalls anyway. If you were in his shoes how do you play this?

Re: Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

2nd pair is hard to play. Maybe he made a good reas on the push.

Making a small lead from the blinds with 2nd pair does seem like a poor approach. Many players (donks) believe in making a small bet with a medium hand.

Usually I would make a small lead as either a pure bluff or to get action for a set or something. However, I don't usually make gay bets like that.

I think leading out 2/3 pot, check calling, and checkraising are all reasonable choices.

I don't think JT is a good hand at all. If it wasn't suited, I probably wouldn't call a raise with it, even a small raise all the chip leader in the BB.

I think this is a better hand to make a resteal reraise with than to see a flop with. However, a big stack might prefer to try to steal the hand after the flop.

I agree villain whole style appears donkish. Villain appears to have poor style/technique/book knowledge, but is good at reads.

Re: Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

I agree with you. Folding is probably the best play.

Funny though, with a medium pocket pair my reflex usually is to fold. If I push with say, 77, and am called I'm almost always against overs or I'm dominated. If I push with AT and I'm called I may not be in great shape, but
when I'm dominated I'm in better shape.

Bruce

Re: Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you. Folding is probably the best play.

Funny though, with a medium pocket pair my reflex usually is to fold. If I push with say, 77, and am called I'm almost always against overs or I'm dominated. If I push with AT and I'm called I may not be in great shape, but
when I'm dominated I'm in better shape.

Bruce

[/ QUOTE ]
You have the odds to push with 77. A lot times you are called and ahead against AK or something. AT is likely to be a 3-1 or 703 dog if dominated, whereas 77 is a 4-1 dog. Pushing UTG with 8xBB and 77 is OK, so this is also OK. It kind of depends if youu want to gamble. You remember the times when it doesn't work. As I siad, I probably would fold 77 too here, because this is a situation where I am not looking to gamble.

Re: Super Tuesday Final Table Hand vs. Chip Leader
 

I don't think his bet was pointless at all. I think it was actually fairly clever, although his subsequent insta-call might lead me to believe that the cleverness was unintended.

The bet was an amount that could be read as either a big hand or a weak hand. It also was enough that if I chose to play back it would be for all my chips. So for a small investment, he found out whether or not I was willing to play for my stack. It's a great sized bet IF you intend to fold to a push.