party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

UTG and mid-pos unknowns limp. I have never seen them before, so they are not regulars and probably stink at poker. I limp in late position with QJo. Both blinds come along.
Flop J73 rainbow. sb checks, bb bets, utg calls, mid pos folds, I raise, sb folds, bb calls, utg calls.
Turn Ac putting 2 clubs on board. BB bets, utg calls, I call?
River 9. bb bets, utg calls, I call?

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

why not call the flop and raise a non-overcard turn?

the way you played it who not fold the turn?

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

If the blinds are tight I like to raise preflop. Postflop is tough, I like stox's comments.

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

I like the flop raise for value and because it helps define your hand and makes it an easier fold if an ace pops up on the turn and it goes bet-call. Also, i'm sure you know what you're doing preflop, but i have hard time imagining you give up much (if anything) by mucking this preflop. Given that you made to the flop, i raise the flop as you did and muck the turn, you can see aces up here a lot, and if you have outs they are not all usually clean. When it goes bet/call, they both have worse hands almost never, even with the 2 clubs coming up.

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

I called on the turn because I thought it would really be tough for the bb to fire another barrel on the river into 2 guys without having me beat. I actually folded the river, but would have won the hand. I'm really not sure how to play this one.
Preflop is obviously a small winner at best. I thought the limpers were not good players, so I thought I could turn a profit.

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

Two things here.

First, I've seen a lot of opponents try to represent an ace in this situation, when in fact their bet usually signifies a drawing hand, and they think maybe you laydown to the A.

It's rare, and, I've seen it a lot mostly because of my stubborn call downs in this same spot.


Against unknowns, I'd call down here.

Against a player who has a clue, I seriously doubt he fires into 2 opponents here without TP.


I like a call down.





Tex

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

[ QUOTE ]
I called on the turn because I thought it would really be tough for the bb to fire another barrel on the river into 2 guys without having me beat. I actually folded the river, but would have won the hand. I'm really not sure how to play this one.
Preflop is obviously a small winner at best. I thought the limpers were not good players, so I thought I could turn a profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to fold a lot of winners. Or maybe those are just the hands you write about.
But it is hard to overcall the river.

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

Are you playing preflop because you think your hand is best? Because you think can make up for whatever deficit you have in hand strength through implied odds? Or because you feel that your opponents likely horrible post flop play makes up for the disparate nature in your hand strength?

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you playing preflop because you think your hand is best? Because you think can make up for whatever deficit you have in hand strength through implied odds? Or because you feel that your opponents likely horrible post flop play makes up for the disparate nature in your hand strength?

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually play a bit lower, so sorry if this is a stupid question, but...is QJo really such a terrible hand in late position? I can see ditching it up front, but should we really be throwing this away for one bet, in late position, in anything but the most aggressive games?

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you playing preflop because you think your hand is best? Because you think can make up for whatever deficit you have in hand strength through implied odds? Or because you feel that your opponents likely horrible post flop play makes up for the disparate nature in your hand strength?

[/ QUOTE ]

Some combination of these.

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

[ QUOTE ]

You seem to fold a lot of winners. Or maybe those are just the hands you write about.
But it is hard to overcall the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to post hands like this. It is part of my game I'm focusing on.

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

Why put him on an ace? I guess the theory is that he has two pair or a set and is afraid that you won't protect your J. I think he has a stupid J that he didn't want to fold, and is taking a shot, but maybe because I know the results. I think you are good here more than 1 in 10. You have the BB beat nearly every single time, so the question is does 1 in 10 unknown play this goofily.... ?

I say this, because you might find yourself saying he has to be a goofball to fire twice here, and I'll find out because utg called him down -- rather than, is the pot big enough to cover the possibility that he is a goofball, because utgs call is pretty irrelevant. I mean, you prolly woulda called if utg folded. And if the turn got checked through and then he came out betting, you prolly woulda called for a smaller pot... no?

The point I was trying to make is that you didn't base the call decision so much on the likelihood your hand was good as much as your desire to see the hand. In retrospect, if that was most important, fold the turn.

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

Wouldn't raising the turn for a free showdown accomplish more in this spot?

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

This thread is pretty funny. The hand is a pretty clear fold on the river. But then when you post the results everyone starts saying you should've called down.

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

Why is it a clear fold on the river but not on the turn?

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

Why not raise preflop? If you have QJs you are raising preflop, right? QJo doesn't seem much worse against bad playing early limpers.

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't raising the turn for a free showdown accomplish more in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I thought too, but I think I saw the results too soon.

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

[ QUOTE ]
This thread is pretty funny. The hand is a pretty clear fold on the river. But then when you post the results everyone starts saying you should've called down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100%. Like i said, i think there are many cases where a fold on the turn is appropriate as well. People, don't be so results oriented. Overcalling 2 streets with second pair medium kicker is a VERY bad plan for almost any situation, and nothing about this hand makes me think this is an exception.

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

It may be results oriented to say call the river. And I do like folding the turn. But I think calling the river is consistent with calling the turn. What I'd like is someone to explain why calling the turn and folding the river is correct taking into account the size of the pot and the likelihood that UTG is second best to you.

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

[ QUOTE ]
why not call the flop and raise a non-overcard turn?


[/ QUOTE ]

If one decides to wait for the turn to raise, I am not sure that an overcard on the turn should dissuade us from raising; in fact, it may give us more reason to raise i.e. the flop bettor will often follow through with a bet regardless of whether the turn card hit him and there is reason for him to think that the turn overcard hit you (if you raise the turn) given that you just called the flop on a board bereft of draws (or at least, it is my recollection that the flop was rainbow).

Also, given that you have QJ and the only kickers that beat you are a King and an Ace, a turn overcard is frequently better than a turn undercard vis a vis the original flop bettor. That is to say, if a ten comes on the turn, it's worse for you than a King on the turn because that ten may give the bettor JT which now vaults his hand over yours. If the King gives him KJ, then that's not as big a deal as he had you beat anyway.

hm...reviewing this, I suspect that my writing skills aren't up to par today...whatever...your reading skills should make up for my poor writing.

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

[ QUOTE ]
It may be results oriented to say call the river. And I do like folding the turn. But I think calling the river is consistent with calling the turn. What I'd like is someone to explain why calling the turn and folding the river is correct taking into account the size of the pot and the likelihood that UTG is second best to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Paluka felt that there was a decent chance people would semi-bluff the turn, but there was almost 0% liklihood that someone would follow through into 2 people on the river with a hand worse than his. I understand his thought process, but i still advocate either folding the turn of calling down. (And i lean very heavily towards folding the turn) Basically the pot was laying him like 10-1, so he has to have the best hand 10% of th time to overcall this river. I think he might be lucky to have the best hand 5% o the time here. This was just a circumstance where he got shown worse hands and wanted to confirm that his play was ok, which i think it was. (although i fold 1 street earlier)

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, i'm sure you know what you're doing preflop, but i have hard time imagining you give up much (if anything) by mucking this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also call this late position after limpers. Am I wrong to?

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, i'm sure you know what you're doing preflop, but i have hard time imagining you give up much (if anything) by mucking this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also call this late position after limpers. Am I wrong to?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. This is a pretty standard call against likely bad playing opponents.

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, i'm sure you know what you're doing preflop, but i have hard time imagining you give up much (if anything) by mucking this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also call this late position after limpers. Am I wrong to?

[/ QUOTE ]

GAMBLE IT UP DERB!!!!!!

just kidding, I play JTo, K9o, QTo even 9To sometimes in late position after limpers. QJ is pretty compared to those hands.

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

There doesn't seem to be a lot of consensus on how to play this hand. I thought it was a tough spot.

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

So what happened was a 20:1 shot or worse that Paluka just happened to witness? O rly. That seems quite a bit long to me. Not 1 in 10 but fewer than 1 in 20 unknown Party 30 players is this goofy. You might be right. I'm skeptical.

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

Would you have called the river if UTG folded? Would those who laugh at my view/argument agree with that fold?

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

I don't like the spot you're in on the turn here. There's a chance you might have the best hand, but you'll have to fold the river to a bet-call in front of you if you decide to call the turn.

I would play it the same way you did PF and on the flop (although sometimes I'd smooth-call the flop and raise the turn). On the turn I would sit and agonize for a little bit, think to myself "This sucks, I might be ahead here" then click the fold button.

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

[ QUOTE ]
So what happened was a 20:1 shot or worse that Paluka just happened to witness? O rly. That seems quite a bit long to me. Not 1 in 10 but fewer than 1 in 20 unknown Party 30 players is this goofy. You might be right. I'm skeptical.

[/ QUOTE ]

I witnessed a 1 outer once. Does that mean it wasn't a 1 outer? A 1 in 20 shot isn't all that rare.

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

[ QUOTE ]
Would you have called the river if UTG folded? Would those who laugh at my view/argument agree with that fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have called the river if utg folded, although it is really hard to put utg on a hand that beats me.

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So what happened was a 20:1 shot or worse that Paluka just happened to witness? O rly. That seems quite a bit long to me. Not 1 in 10 but fewer than 1 in 20 unknown Party 30 players is this goofy. You might be right. I'm skeptical.

[/ QUOTE ]

I witnessed a 1 outer once. Does that mean it wasn't a 1 outer? A 1 in 20 shot isn't all that rare.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, but you might address the question. Do you think fewer than 1 in 20 unknown 30 players makes this play? I'm really interested in your and other's opinions.

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

I don't have a problem with the way you played it until the river, I think you should call the river if you call the turn. Unless the utg player raises.

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So what happened was a 20:1 shot or worse that Paluka just happened to witness? O rly. That seems quite a bit long to me. Not 1 in 10 but fewer than 1 in 20 unknown Party 30 players is this goofy. You might be right. I'm skeptical.

[/ QUOTE ]

I witnessed a 1 outer once. Does that mean it wasn't a 1 outer? A 1 in 20 shot isn't all that rare.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, but you might address the question. Do you think fewer than 1 in 20 unknown 30 players makes this play? I'm really interested in your and other's opinions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honesty, I thought it was very close whether to fold or call. I was getting something like 10 to 1. I would say I win the pot there at least 5% of the time, but I'd be really surprised if I won it more than 1 time in 6. When the hand went down I thought to myself "I think I'm folding, but this could be wrong." But asking me is pointless- I obviously thought it was close that is why I posted the hand.
It is possible that if you are going to call the turn in this spot, you should just always call the river.

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't raising the turn for a free showdown accomplish more in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't read the results yet, but in reading the OP that was my thought. The donk screams "I picked up a draw), and the call screams "I'm weak as hell and don't have an Ace". I raise the turn 100% of the time here without hesitation.

lf

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

[ QUOTE ]
It is possible that if you are going to call the turn in this spot, you should just always call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, if you call the turn I think you want to call the river. That said, the more I think about this hand the more I like folding the turn.

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

Thank you. I think what we need here is more hand reading and pot odd calculation rather than being guided by the principles:

1) Overcalling with middle pair is for donks.
2) It's a really big donk who blusters turn and river into a protected pot without a hand.

You can't put utg on a hand, and the exercise of putting BB on a hand is difficult. If he has a monster (big ace, two pair, or set or toppair + nut draw, and where was the nutdraw on the flop), isn't he more likely to try for c/r? It starts looking like a hand that will call or air real quick.

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

i raise preflop and i raise the turn as well planning to most likely check down the river.
if BB is passive, or sane i would just fold the turn, but i dont know what youre supposed to be putting him on here and his erratic play makes me think he must be an idiot. it seems like hes picked up a club draw here alot, and if thats the case, you have every1 beat.

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

Maybe DERB used to run into tough spots like this too.

~D

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

I don't really like raising preflop in this spot. I think people get themselves into trouble trying to raise preflop in multiway pots with hands that have basically zero showdown value. With the preflop raise and a near mandatory continuation bet it ends up costing you 3 times as much to "see the flop".

Re: party 30/60 hand I\'m not happy with
 

Why is a continuation bet near mandatory? Multi-way against people who won't fold, it doesn't seem like it is. But you should still be able to extract enough playing QJ on the BN against bad players to make the raise profitable, no? What do you think your equity in the pot is, taking into account position and playing ability?