River bluff check raise
 

Button had sort of solid stats 23/9/something decent

I'm not sure if those hands were from short or full games, so he's either a little too loose or a little too passive, but he's got the right idea.

MP is unknown.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: (7.66 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (5.33 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP2 checks, Button checks.

River: (5.33 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>

Re: River bluff check raise
 

I'd bet the turn. Coldcalling pf and then calling the flop could easily be overcards like KQ or AJ, and I want to bet here to either charge KQ or give AJ a chance to fold.

Re: River bluff check raise
 

I hate it, I think all the hands that are beating you will call. What are you representing 55-88 for a boat? If you are perceived as a solid player, I wouldn't give you much credit for the boat since your raised UTG in a almost full ring game. Any hand with a 9 doesn't make sense since you would have fired the turn with (99) and wouldn't have raised from UTG with the others (A9)...

Re: River bluff check raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hate it, I think all the hands that are beating you will call. What are you representing 55-88 for a boat? If you are perceived as a solid player, I wouldn't give you much credit for the boat since your raised UTG in a almost full ring game. Any hand with a 9 doesn't make sense since you would have fired the turn with (99) and wouldn't have raised from UTG with the others (A9)...

[/ QUOTE ]
Fwiw I would raise preflop with 66 and A9s.

Re: River bluff check raise
 

If I'm leading out on the flop like this and not getting raised, then I would rather bet the turn and check the river.

Re: River bluff check raise
 

if you won this hand you weren't bluffing.

Re: River bluff check raise
 

someone knowing me would know it's a bluff ... I almost never raise any of them UTG in a full game. But I'm playing 30/60 if that change anything.

Re: River bluff check raise
 

its 7 handed

Re: River bluff check raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
I almost never raise any of them UTG in a full game. But I'm playing 30/60 if that change anything.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think the limit matters at all, at least not 15/30 -&gt; 30/60. Also, this game wasn't "full", it was 7 handed.

Re: River bluff check raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you won this hand you weren't bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't think MP could fold a pair or better ace? I agree that the button pretty much never folds a better hand, but that wasn't the goal.

Re: River bluff check raise
 

Evan, can you talk about why you checked the turn? I would always bet here (without more opponent knowledge than we had here). I don't think a raise is too likely and I want to get to the river and there are lots of things I'd be happy to have my opponents fold and they may even call with a worse hand. Why check?

Re: River bluff check raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you won this hand you weren't bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't think MP could fold a pair or better ace? I agree that the button pretty much never folds a better hand, but that wasn't the goal.

[/ QUOTE ]

what i'm saying is that you don't even have to raise to get MP to fold those things.

Re: River bluff check raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Evan, can you talk about why you checked the turn? I would always bet here (without more opponent knowledge than we had here). I don't think a raise is too likely and I want to get to the river and there are lots of things I'd be happy to have my opponents fold and they may even call with a worse hand. Why check?

[/ QUOTE ]
Mostly because I don't think I have the best hand. Boards with a lot of middlish cards tend to hit people that limp or coldcall. In this case, with two coldcallers, I think it usually hit one of them. I don't think a raise is LIKELY, but it's possible and it sucks.

I don't think betting really accomplishses much. Yea, he may have KQ or a bare and I give those hands a free card. But given that it's still three ways to the turn I don't think that's as big a concern as someone holding a pair.

Re: River bluff check raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Evan, can you talk about why you checked the turn? I would always bet here (without more opponent knowledge than we had here). I don't think a raise is too likely and I want to get to the river and there are lots of things I'd be happy to have my opponents fold and they may even call with a worse hand. Why check?

[/ QUOTE ]
Mostly because I don't think I have the best hand. Boards with a lot of middlish cards tend to hit people that limp or coldcall. In this case, with two coldcallers, I think it usually hit one of them. I don't think a raise is LIKELY, but it's possible and it sucks.



[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree with you here. Betting the turn would just be spewing IMO. I just wonder if the same logic you described dictates perhaps checking the flop as well. I tend to autobet all but the ugliest flops when I raised pre-flop as you did. But here you are pretty unlikely to be ahead on the flop and the board gives people all sorts of excuses to call.

One difference is that on the turn, having already been called in two places, you can't possibly expect to be ahead or get the entire field to fold. Whereas, on the flop you might be ahead or be able to get small pairs to fold. Just a thought.