Party 25NL. AK tptk, bets pot gets two callers.
 

Party 25NL

So here it is down and dirty. My hand is visible and two people calleda pot-sized bet. And they have position on me. What to do?

I know it's a drawing board but there are many hands that beat me. Sets, 2pairs. And they both call pot sized bet from pre-flop raiser on A flop.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx


UTG+1 ($24.30)
<font color="#C00000">MP1 :#A500AF(Villan)/ ($28.75)</font>
MP2 ($18)
MP3 ($4.75)
CO ($28.30)
Button ($33.10)
SB ($42.75)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($23.40)</font>
UTG ($15.05)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 :#A500AF(Villan)/ calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB (poster) completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $0.5</font>, UTG calls $0.50, MP1 :#A500AF(Villan)/ calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, SB folds.

Flop: ($3.25) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3</font>, UTG folds, Villan calls $3, CO calls $3.

Turn: ($12.25) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero ??</font>

Re: Party 25NL. AK tptk, bets pot gets two callers.
 

when you know you'll be out of position after the flop why aren't you raising more preflop?

Re: Party 25NL. AK tptk, bets pot gets two callers.
 

AK in BB.. i like to raise 5-6x the big blind.. and end the hand right there, winning a pot with ace high is always a good result.. but apparently at this table you need to raise more than that to have the same effect.

if you had raised more preflop, then you would "probably" have fewer opponents to worry about. then you could play aggressively into a bigger pot and hopefuly win more money and with a higher chance of winning.

Re: Party 25NL. AK tptk, bets pot gets two callers.
 

You just minraised out of the BB. OY! Don't ever do this again. Ever. That's the only lesson you need for this hand. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Party 25NL. AK tptk, bets pot gets two callers.
 

Big mistake PF, raise more to thin the field. 1.25-1.50 should do the trick.

The board is draw-heavy so I usually lead out the turn for 8-9 (most often I get 2 folds). If you get called, it's most likely a split between some chaser who can't let go, a lesser ace or a better hand than yours (78, set). No matter what, once you bet the turn, you're pretty much committed.

You could bet less (6$) and fold to a raise, but be aware that you now offer attractive odds to probable drawers.

Re: Party 25NL. AK tptk, bets pot gets two callers.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know it's a drawing board but there are many hands that beat me. Sets, 2pairs. And they both call pot sized bet from pre-flop raiser on A flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sets and 2-pair hands would be making a mistake by not raising your flop bet, since they should be the ones concerned about draws.

Your opponents are drawing. Lead the turn hard.

Re: Party 25NL. AK tptk, bets pot gets two callers.
 

although u gotta remember, you DO want people who are on the draw to call your bet.. but wrong odds to do so.

Re: Party 25NL. AK tptk, bets pot gets two callers.
 

Your pre flop raise was way too small.....at least 1 bet for each limper in the pot. On the turn bet half the pot and hope you only end up with 1 villan. Fold to a large re-raise.

Re: Party 25NL. AK tptk, bets pot gets two callers.
 

Yes I want them to call 9 on the turn. 6 is border-correct odds if you consider implied odds. But you have to remember that you might also want to balance out giving wrong odds and not committing yourself w TPTK vs 2 players. Reads are helpful in a spot like this.

Re: Party 25NL. AK tptk, bets pot gets two callers.
 

Yuck, the min raise in the BB is simply horrible! Don't do it! You're simply creating a bigger pot, OOP with a non-made hand. Pump this up to $1.50 PF or do not raise at all.

NOW when you make a pot sized bet on the flop, you will have a much better idea where you are based upon villians reactions.

Now, as it's played out. And assuming we have no reads on villian? I Bet $10 on the turn, if raised it's too late I'm going to have to call with the stack sizes as they are. Any decent villian here would raise with a set or two pair, holdings here are more likely to be weaker aces, straight or flush draws.

But you see by raising this higher PF, you will get rid of anyone with A8, A7, or 87 which can all beat you now, and give you a much better chance of winning this pot.

Re: Party 25NL. AK tptk, bets pot gets two callers.
 

You gotta do more than minraise PF.

This turn bet has to be able to tell you waht they have by how they react to it. I like around $8. It doesn't price in flush draws and it's big enough to define your hand, it also doesn't get you pot commited in case someone moves in over the top. I should tell you that I just started learning NL.

Re: Party 25NL. AK tptk, bets pot gets two callers.
 

I THINK HE GETS THE PONIT OF THE BIGGER PREFLOP RAISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i think he probably got it after the first 4x

Converter wrong??
 

I think converter screwed up on this one. I raised 0.5 or "to 0.75" Either way it was bad, but that's not the point.

Converter said "raises to 0.5". But if you add up the numbers, four players 0.5 each don't make $3. 0.75 each does.

and in the text of the hand itself, I raised to 0.75.

The Conclusion of the hand
 

Thank you all for your replies.

Alittle background on myself: I am a 5.5 PTBB/100 player over the last 20k hands at PP 25NL. Nothing to write home about, but not clueless either.

The reason for my pot-building "to 0.75" raise from BB w/AK is that recently I looked at my stats and saw that I am barely breaking even w/AK. So I decided to experiment with different strategies of playing it. My thinking was that if I raise big I only get called by pocket pairs. And some of them tend to soak up continuation bets. So I decided to build the pot so everybody calls. That way I bet my TPTK or check. But that's a discussion for another day.

Let's go back to this exciting hand.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG+1 ($24.30)
<font color="#C00000">MP1 ($28.75)</font>
MP2 ($18)
MP3 ($4.75)
CO ($28.30)
Button ($33.10)
SB ($42.75)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($23.40)</font>
UTG ($15.05)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB (poster) completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $0.5</font>, UTG calls $0.50, MP1 calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, SB folds.

Flop: ($3.25) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3</font>, UTG folds, MP1 calls $3, CO calls $3.

Turn: ($12.25) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3</font>, MP1 calls $3, CO calls $3.

So, based on your answers, I made another mistake. I am giving the right odds for drawing hands. I had an eerie feeling about 2 pot-sized calls so I decided to slow down. But I didn't want to give a free card either. So I bet somwhere in between ...

River: ($21.25) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3</font>, MP1 calls $22 (All-In), CO folds, Hero calls $13.65 (All-In).

Final Pot: $59.90

I value bet the river.

This last call is basically out of spite. I didn't have a very good self control at that point. At least I quit 4-tabling right after the hand and went to bed, deciding to cut my losses. Of course, I got sucked out on with the last card. classic.


Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Kh Ad (one pair, aces).
MP1 has 8c Ts (two pair, tens and eights).
Outcome: MP1 wins $59.90. </font>

Re: Party 25NL. AK tptk, bets pot gets two callers.
 

[ QUOTE ]
when you know you'll be out of position after the flop why aren't you raising more preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he wants more than one caller to play against with a drawing hand. If he misses A or K against one player, he is facing some hard decisions OOP. That is going to happen 2/3 of the time.

Re: Party 25NL. AK tptk, bets pot gets two callers.
 

Somebody understands!

Re: The Conclusion of the hand
 

I still don't think you should be making these small raises. (1) you lose the ability to win it preflop. (2) you now encourage people to stay in with crap because they will all have pot odds.

This reminds me of the guys who always minraised with any good hand. Since he had better then a full stack, I began calling with all sorts of junk because I knew he liked his hand and I was getting better then 3 to 1 on my money. Those are the times when you bust the guy with aces when you call with 8-j suited out of position, hit 2 pair and bust them. Then they yell at you for calling with crap.

For the record, I vary how I play AK in the bb. Either I raise big or I limp. Frankly, I think position is so important and I'd rathar play most hands oop weakly for a small pot so that I'm not forced to bet into a field of callers. But, when I do decide to raise it, I'm going to raise it to at least $1.50.

[ QUOTE ]
My thinking was that if I raise big I only get called by pocket pairs.

[/ QUOTE ] You must be at different tables then me. I have people calling raises with A5os and 5-Q suited from any position at the $25 and $50 tables. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
So I decided to build the pot so everybody calls. That way I bet my TPTK or check. But that's a discussion for another day.


[/ QUOTE ]
I think that's a key factor of this hand and should be discussed today. The problem is you're building a pot preflop that you're going to have to play out of position, you haven't narrowed the field... and now your bets are going to have to be large (and obviously larger on the turn and river). Its because of this why, on the turn, you're betting $3 into a $12 pot, giving any type of draw the correct odds to draw out on you. You've bloated the pot and now you can't play it correctly without risking essentially your entire stack on a TPTK hand.

Re: The Conclusion of the hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Frankly, I think position is so important and I'd rathar play most hands oop weakly for a small pot so that I'm not forced to bet into a field of callers. But, when I do decide to raise it, I'm going to raise it to at least $1.50.

[/ QUOTE ]

Words to live by

Re: The Conclusion of the hand
 

Just curious on a related note. Is a minraise in any position pre-flop ever correct? I would think no.

Re: The Conclusion of the hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just curious on a related note. Is a minraise in any position pre-flop ever correct? I would think no.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very rarely. Maybe if you're trying to mix up your play, prevent people reading your bet sizes. Or creating a donk image of yourself. But at small stakes where chances are most the villians at your table aren't paying attention to whether you raise 2xBB or 5xBB with AA it's a -EV play.

Re: Party 25NL. AK tptk, bets pot gets two callers.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is BB with K, A. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP1 :#A500AF(Villan)/ calls $0.25, 2 folds, CO calls $0.25, 1 fold, SB (poster) completes, Hero raises to $0.5, UTG calls $0.50, MP1 :#A500AF(Villan)/ calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, SB folds.


[/ QUOTE ]

I am sure everyone told you that if you are going to raise, you must raise more, especially since you are going to be at a positional disadvantage for the rest of the hand.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: ($3.25) 7, A, 8 (4 players)
Hero bets $3, UTG folds, Villan calls $3, CO calls $3.

[/ QUOTE ]

This part of the hand is fine. You cannot risk letting a free card come off here. The two callers may not be giving you as much respect as they should here becuase you did not define your hand that well preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: ($12.25) 3 (3 players)
Hero ??

[/ QUOTE ]

Now you have to use the information you have up to this point to make a decision. They both limped pre-flop right? What would that do that with--weak aces, weak suited aces, suited connectors, small pocket pairs, maybe hands like AJo ATo, KJo KQo.

Now what kind of hand would call a pot sized bet on the flop. The flush draws will almost always call in this game. Hell, even a bare OESD will call in this game. The weak aces are almost certainly going to call in this game.

I think will that board and since you showed some strength preflop, the two pair and set hands are going to raise you on the flop.

So what do I suggest? A push. Flame away.

Re: The Conclusion of the hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just curious on a related note. Is a minraise in any position pre-flop ever correct? I would think no.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, say you are in the BB with a small pocket pair. Your chances of hitting trips are 7:1. So if there are 7 limpers and the SB completes, and you minraise, you will get 8 more BB's in the pot, for one of your own. I guess that's a profitable play.

I didn't factor in implied odds on that one. It's hard to quantify, but if you hit your trips, you will be able to bet bigger because the pot is bigger and people will tend to stay in longer.

So in this example, maybe it could even be profitable with 6 limpers, maybe 5.

Same logic could be applied to other drawing hands like Axs or SC's.

And for the record: I never minraise PF. I've just been thinking about this some. Not at all sure I'm correct though.

Re: The Conclusion of the hand
 

There's only one time I've ever min(re)raised, and that was post flop when I wanted to play a hand heads up, but without losing the original raiser... so I minraised making it less enticing for others to call, but keeping the original guy in.

Preflop, I can only think of one reason to minraise:
If you're at a table and you know some maniac/lag bet, was called by a bunch of limpers, and you know the LAG will reopen the betting if you minraise it, and you have aces and know it will allow you to get him all in preflop, then maybe a minraise is in order. But that's so rare, its the exception.

Most of the time, I see this from the idiotic minraisers... 4-5 people limp pf, the button minraises it, UTG makes a major reraise, and then everyone including the minraiser folds. If you're going to minraise it, then you should be prepared to play a real raise, perhaps even up to an all in.

2 other thoughts: I always wonder... If one is sitting at a $25 table and they minraise it every time they're in a hand, I don't understand why the person doesn't just sit at a $50 table? Since the raise is doing nothing except doubling the big blind, they should just move up a table.

The other is related to minraising... nothing spells fish more then these guys who call raises PF... the pot is now $4 and some guy in EP now leads on the flop... for a quarter, then folds when someone raises it. Is there any point to that quarter bet other then it being a charitable donation to your opponents? lol

Re: The Conclusion of the hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
2 other thoughts: I always wonder... If one is sitting at a $25 table and they minraise it every time they're in a hand, I don't understand why the person doesn't just sit at a $50 table? Since the raise is doing nothing except doubling the big blind, they should just move up a table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe because it's like a $50 table with 0.10 - 0.25 blinds?

Re: Party 25NL. AK tptk, bets pot gets two callers.
 

[ QUOTE ]
So what do I suggest? A push. Flame away.


[/ QUOTE ] Though I agree with your assessment as to what hands are most LIKELY out there... I think the push is terrible. Its one of those situations where, unless everyone is a moron, everyone you beat will fold and everyone else will call. Matter of fact, I LOVE overbetters like this. They're the ideal people to trap.

[ QUOTE ]
I think will that board and since you showed some strength preflop, the two pair and set hands are going to raise you on the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree... many people slowplay their sets until the turn. How often do you see people with sets play the same pattern, call the flop bet, raise (or checkraise) the turn.

Furthermore, Considering all the limpers and the fact that its a $25 table, a lot of weak aces are possible. And now, on the turn when someone else may have just made 2 pair, or when a set is ready to 'make their move', you suggest the poster go allin with no improvement.

I think this is a terrible idea, it gets no value out of the hand when OP is ahead because it folds all worse hands except from the worst calling stations and gives away his stack to anyone who's beating him.

Re: Party 25NL. AK tptk, bets pot gets two callers.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So what do I suggest? A push. Flame away.


[/ QUOTE ] Though I agree with your assessment as to what hands are most LIKELY out there... I think the push is terrible. Its one of those situations where, unless everyone is a moron, everyone you beat will fold and everyone else will call. Matter of fact, I LOVE overbetters like this. They're the ideal people to trap.

[ QUOTE ]
I think will that board and since you showed some strength preflop, the two pair and set hands are going to raise you on the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree... many people slowplay their sets until the turn. How often do you see people with sets play the same pattern, call the flop bet, raise (or checkraise) the turn.

Furthermore, Considering all the limpers and the fact that its a $25 table, a lot of weak aces are possible. And now, on the turn when someone else may have just made 2 pair, or when a set is ready to 'make their move', you suggest the poster go allin with no improvement.

I think this is a terrible idea, it gets no value out of the hand when OP is ahead because it folds all worse hands except from the worst calling stations and gives away his stack to anyone who's beating him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess the standard play is to lead the turn and fold to a raise right? What if we are called, a reasonable sized defensive/value bet on the river? Meh, I suppose this is the right way to play it.


Don't forget we are talking about the worst players on the internet in this game. I seriously doubt many of them are capable of laying traps to the huge overbetters--I must note that in my game I will make this overbets with Sets and Huge Draws also, so sometimes when I sense weakness, like in this situation I will put my opponents to the test.

Re: Party 25NL. AK tptk, bets pot gets two callers.
 

eww..
do you honestly play with that thought proccess?

u might as well check ur AA bc they might get a flush/straight tooo

Re: The Conclusion of the hand
 

i min-raise all the time low pockets/suited connectors.. mix it up instead of always calling..(at tight tables that refuse to give action post flop)
.. but not AK..

Re: Party 25NL. AK tptk, bets pot gets two callers.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don't forget we are talking about the worst players on the internet in this game. I seriously doubt many of them are capable of laying traps to the huge overbetters--

[/ QUOTE ] In general, you're right. But rarely is the table complete morons... you can count on at least one observant player per table. I play any of the tables from $25-$100. And at the $25 tables, I make surprising big pots from people overplaying top pair.

[ QUOTE ]
I must note that in my game I will make this overbets with Sets and Huge Draws also, so sometimes when I sense weakness, like in this situation I will put my opponents to the test.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that's great... but then your suggestion makes sense as part of an overall strategy (ie... you're going to get called a few times and you'd better show really strong hands a few times... or this play becomes chip spewing.)

Also, I still think it works better in late position. I still say he's getting the least when he's ahead and losing the most when he's behind.

Re: Party 25NL. AK tptk, bets pot gets two callers.
 

I started puking halfway through this thread and couldn't finish reading it...Is this the state of the SSNL forum?????? We need a M(icro)SNL forum for crap like this.

Online idiots are one thing. "Supposed" 2+2 "learning-the-game" types who are misapplying every rule they read about in their books is just shameful. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]


Min-raise a small pocket pair from the BB b/c of implied odds????? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I hope it leads you into an expensive limp-reraise from some idiot in early position who thinks he's slowplaying his high pair.

Re: Party 25NL. AK tptk, bets pot gets two callers.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Min-raise a small pocket pair from the BB b/c of implied odds????? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I hope it leads you into an expensive limp-reraise from some idiot in early position who thinks he's slowplaying his high pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who said that? I don't think anyone said that in this thread. I thought most people on the forum agreement that minraising is dumb?