I can\'t get away from top set here can I?
 

Villain is a loose, awful fish.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Button ($209.35)
Hero ($212.80)
BB ($134)
UTG ($197)
MP ($127.10)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $4</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero (poster) raises to $11</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $8.

Flop: ($26) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $25</font>, Button calls $25.

Turn: ($76) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Hero bets 76, villain min raises, hero pushes.

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I?
 

i think ur beat here most the time

reraise preflop a little more maybe 16 or something then bet pot on flop

if u dont think he has it just call the turn min reraise

only thing that calls ur alln is the flush

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I?
 

[ QUOTE ]
only thing that calls ur alln is the flush


[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone would call the allin because there isn't much left behind.

Other than re-raising more preflop, I don't know how else you would play it.

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I?
 

[/ QUOTE ]Anyone would call the allin because there isn't much left behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is true im used to 400

guess u have 2 push on the end after the reraise

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I?
 

Is checkcalling the turn awfull here? (you will then give him the oppurtunity to represent a flush while maintaining potsize. If his bets are not too big you can get a showdown too) I'm really not sure.. If the pot was smaller I would definetely bet since it would then be more room to boat up if his betting/calling suggested that he has a flush, and you could stack him if you got there and get away if you didn't.

What about betting 40-50 instead? This should leave a little more room (I do realize villain is a calling fish and that you want to max value)

Flame away~

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is checkcalling the turn awfull here?

[/ QUOTE ]

if he dont bet and a dia comes on the river i'm sick

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I?
 

If he TRULY is a fish(meaning typically very passive), then I fold to the mini-raise. In my experience I've found I'm usually beat in these spots more often than not. If others disagree, I'd love to hear it. I just don't see a fish mini-raising something like AdQx here. The ONLY probable hand that he may donk raise this is QQ. AA seems unlikely, as most fish re-raise here. I think it's much more probable that you see something fishy like AdTd, AdJd etc... just my two cents.

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I?
 

WTF for real?

you are getting better than 3 to 1 to call the min-raise

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I?
 

[ QUOTE ]
WTF for real?

you are getting better than 3 to 1 to call the min-raise

[/ QUOTE ]

It's my opinion that sometimes it's better to deviate from the odds when it becomes abudently obvious you're beat. Like I said, if you've found you're ahead more than 25% of the time here I'd like to hear it. Perhaps I've just ran really bad in these spots over the last couple of years, but I've found against TRULY passive fish, I'm beat here more than 75% of the time.

If you are someone who only plays the odds, you are absolutely correct, at least a call is in order.

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I? *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by BobboFitos

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I?
 

[ QUOTE ]
WTF for real?

you are getting better than 3 to 1 to call the min-raise

[/ QUOTE ]

I am also asking about my turn bet in the first place

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I?
 

I mean jesus.. how can he have 1600 posts

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I? *DELETED*
 

Want to reedit what I said -

freak daddy, posts like yours show a huge lack of understanding. I dont mean this in a personal negative attack or whatnot, but you probably should cut down on posting and read more

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
WTF for real?

you are getting better than 3 to 1 to call the min-raise

[/ QUOTE ]

I am also asking about my turn bet in the first place

[/ QUOTE ]

On the turn I'd either check or bet less. It's just a nasty card because it might have beaten you or destroyed any action. I think betting full pot is one of the worst lines available.

That's the beauty of top set though.. no matter how you play it you can't really be making too much of a mistake.

Unless you just fold to a turn min-raise..

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
WTF for real?

you are getting better than 3 to 1 to call the min-raise

[/ QUOTE ]

I am also asking about my turn bet in the first place

[/ QUOTE ]

On the turn I'd either check or bet less. It's just a nasty card because it might have beaten you or destroyed any action. I think betting full pot is one of the worst lines available.

That's the beauty of top set though.. no matter how you play it you can't really be making too much of a mistake.

Unless you just fold to a turn min-raise..

[/ QUOTE ]


Let me clarify. Folding the turn after the minraise isn't an option. I guess I should have clarified that I meant I wanted reaction to my turn play as a whole.

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Unless you just fold to a turn min-raise..

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, good one

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I mean jesus.. how can he have 1600 posts

[/ QUOTE ]

I would prefer as an educated adult who has played A LOT of poker, that if you disagree with what I post then you respond in kind and explain why you disagree. There are a LOT of people on this forum who play poker (especially online) strictly by the math. That's fine. In this particular situation, I would BET that you are behind enough here that a fold isn't giving anything up. You likely only have 22-23% equity to boat up here, and unless I'm doing the math wrong you're getting only 76-77% here.

If you think you've seen passive fish mini-raise a turn card like this when they are drawing or possibly behind, well what can I say, then either they aren't truly passive fish OR you've been extremely lucky.

Is there something you don't understand about my post, or you just think that hero should shove it in because well, look he has top trips here.... duhh...

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I? *DELETED*
 

[ QUOTE ]
Want to reedit what I said -

freak daddy, posts like yours show a huge lack of understanding. I dont mean this in a personal negative attack or whatnot, but you probably should cut down on posting and read more

[/ QUOTE ]

Really, what do you think I'm not understanding? Because no offense, but I'll put my winnings and poker tracker stats against anyone on this forum. I think I know a little something about what I'm doing. Perhaps you're not understanding what I'm saying?

I used to stick my chips in here without thinking either. I think most on here would think that's standard poker. I don't think so anymore. There's obviously a lot more levels than understanding hero has X% chance to boat up versus what odds he's being offered versus what probably hand ranges villian has.

And just so there's no misunderstanding, against almost any other opponent, I'd stick it in on the turn here. At the very least, a call is in order because the hand ranges dicatate that.

I have to admit though that is offensive to watch so many fat ego's but heads and make comments at other posters, without considering what they are saying or at the very least asking questions about their line of thinking - or even if you think so - lack of thinking. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

And so there is no further misunderstanding, what you said is offensive and rude.

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I? *DELETED*
 

I'm just gonna edit this to say yeah your math is wrong.

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I?
 

[ QUOTE ]


I would prefer as an educated adult who has played A LOT of poker, that if you disagree with what I post then you respond in kind and explain why you disagree. There are a LOT of people on this forum who play poker (especially online) strictly by the math. That's fine. In this particular situation, I would BET that you are behind enough here that a fold isn't giving anything up. You likely only have 22-23% equity to boat up here, and unless I'm doing the math wrong you're getting only 76-77% here.

If you think you've seen passive fish mini-raise a turn card like this when they are drawing or possibly behind, well what can I say, then either they aren't truly passive fish OR you've been extremely lucky.

Is there something you don't understand about my post, or you just think that hero should shove it in because well, look he has top trips here.... duhh...

[/ QUOTE ]
Hero if behind has 10 outs. 1 king, 3 queens, 3 nines, and 3 sevens. It's possible an out is tainted-like vs JT[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] a Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] will give someone a str8 flush. Or, some of his outs are used, like vs QT[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Or, he's not really behind, but some of the outs he's looking for, are taken, like vs 77 now he only has 7 outs. (the 7 will make 77 quads, and the other 7s which would pair the board are in villains' hand!)

But most of the time we assume we're behind aflush or str8. (JT or XX[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]) This leaves 4 cards "known" 4 on the board, and 52 in a deck of cards. If we have 10 outs, 10 out of 44 = 22.7% equity.

Hero, to call, needs to put 76$ in the pot. If he calls, the pot size will be 380. So, if he has 20% equity (and he has more) pot odds alone he should make the call.

This is assuming we're always behind and that we wont win anything more on the river!

The reality is sometimes Hero is ahead and if he just calls river on a non pairing board will go check/check. And sometimes, he calls and the river pairs, Hero pushes, and gets called.

So no matter what (even 100% behind and wont get paid off if Hero improves) folding would be criminal.

edit - if those stipulations are true, folding is not criminal parsay, but it would be passing up a +EV situation. (because it costs hero 76 to play a pot where his pot equity is worth ~86, so passing is 0EV, but calling is +10$)

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I? *DELETED*
 

[ QUOTE ]
And just so there's no misunderstanding, against almost any other opponent, I'd stick it in on the turn here. At the very least, a call is in order because the hand ranges dicatate that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, a call is in order. That is not what you said before, and it is what scdavis and I had a problem with. (I dont mean to put words in his mouth though)

You said you felt if you were behind you can fold to the turn raise. That is never right.



[ QUOTE ]

And so there is no further misunderstanding, what you said is offensive and rude.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, Im going to sleep, nh freakdaddy.

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I? *DELETED*
 

[ QUOTE ]
First of all a call makes no sense.

If your read is that he has a flush 100.000% of the time, your implied odds are 3.2763 to 1 and as you pointed out you need 3.40529 to 1 in order to play on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I figured something out about 2+2. I think when people are really running bad for that day/week or whatever, they come on here to vent against other posters.

You really haven't understood anything I've said to this point. Yet because I've been insulted I feel compeled to defend my inital post and try and explain this better.

1) My inital post contained a question. The question was, does a loose passive fish mini-raise this turn with anything other then the nuts (which here would be the ace high flush)? Here is my evidence to support an otherwise absurd conclusion against ANY other opponent.
A) Hero showed a lot of strength pre-flop OOP.
B) Villian called flop - typical line for a passive flush chaser here.
C) A diamond came on the turn (a scare card for a fish), who then mini-raises hero. Hmmm... Still sound like a passive fish to you?
D) My experience has shown that villian has the exact hand you don't want to see here in this spot.

2) I did not advocate a call. I advocated a fold. I said that against most other opponents at least a call is in order considering the hand ranges and odds being given to hero.

3) I realize quite clearly that saying someone has X hand 100% of the time is tough to swallow for most players, but if you disagree, or your experience shows you others PLEASE say so. I'd rather share information then tell someone they're an idiot.

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I?
 

True, I did make a mistake in not assuming hero will be paid off here(if he just calls), which he will most of the time if he connects - that was a lack of thinking. You could have just pointed that out though and I would have went... uhh... duhhh. I'm not saying that I never brain fart. Your calculations are a little off though.

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I?
 

FREAKDADDY HE'S GETTING 4 TO 1 ON THE TURN

GOOD DAY SIR

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I?
 

[ QUOTE ]
FREAKDADDY HE'S GETTING 4 TO 1 ON THE TURN

GOOD DAY SIR

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, but you initially said 3 to 1 and I did my math off of that without double checking the hand. I guess you deleted that now.

Grow up.

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I?
 

I said better than 3 to 1

The second post which I edited but you quoted was a joke

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I? *DELETED*
 

[ QUOTE ]

3) I realize quite clearly that saying someone has X hand 100% of the time is tough to swallow for most players, but if you disagree, or your experience shows you others PLEASE say so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Putting someone on a hand with 100% certainty before they flip it up is misguided.

Putting someone on a hand with &gt;90% certainty at $200 6-Max is foolish.

Putting a "loose, awful fish" on a hand with &gt;75% certainty at $200 6-Max is just plain dumb.

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I? *DELETED*
 

Putting someone on a hand with 100% confidence and then taking the WRONG action must be worst of all

Re: I can\'t get away from top set here can I?
 

.