Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use
 

Greetings,

I have followed the recent thread on 'Party Mine' and other past threads on data mining unobserved hands. I personally believe players have an obligation to obey the TOS, even if they think the rules are silly, petty, ignorant or unfair.

If they don't like the rules of the poker room they should find one more to their liking. I think it would be great if there existed online poker rooms that catered to the afficiando of the unobserved hand. Think of all the good fun that could be had on a site dedicated to bot wars! And what about pure poker anarchy with no rules at all!

But seriously, most players expect the card rooms to provide some measure of security. A willingness to enforce their own rules would be a good start. And it appears at least a few online rooms are taking measures to thwart rule-breakers of all stripes. And this is where the controversy starts.

For whatever reason, it appears data-mining unobserved hand histories is popular amongst many posters. I won't go into the reason why data-mining is popular as it's too obvious. Furthermore, it's true that Party Poker and Pokerstars didn't prohibit this in the past. But nevertheless, it currently violates the terms of service. And I find the willingness to violate TOS (by datamining unobserved hands) alarming.

I am interested in getting the opinion of this forum's members on the topic of data-mining unobserved hands. Hence, I have opened up the following poll:

Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use
 

How would you datamine an unobserved hand? O_o

Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use
 

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How would you datamine an unobserved hand? O_o

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uhh, its pretty simple

Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use
 

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But nevertheless, it currently violates the terms of service.

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Can you please clarify, exactly what you believe is against the Party T&C?

Party has specifically taken action against the "sharing" of datamined data, and possibly the use of automation to datamine... but where in the T&C does it say that manual datamining for your own personal use is prohibited?

(Note: At this time, based on the beta software floating around, it appears that Party will do away with observed HH stored on your HD, at some point in the future)

Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use
 

This is a pretty horrible poll. Try not to display your bias so clearly next time.

Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use
 

There's a huge difference between datamining and collusion.

Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How would you datamine an unobserved hand? O_o

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uhh, its pretty simple

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use
 

On Party, what pieces of software are allowed that give on table stats or are all banned? Or are none banned?

Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use
 

i dont see the option for:

"Bitter because I can't afford/can't figure out how to use PokerTracker"

Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use
 

The survey seems flawed. I think you misunderstand the term collusion. Mining unobserved hands has nothing to do with collusion.

Collusion has to do with people sending you signs on a hand in progress allowing you to know for a certainty things you shouldn't know about a hand.

Datamining is about getting stats on old hands giving you numbers that hint at player behavior in the future. You don't actually know anything about a hand in progress.

I'd be perfectly content if all sites disallowed mining uobserved hands, but I think on the scale of things to be concerned about, it's pretty darned low.

Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use
 

You could have made this poll much simpler with the following options:

No
Yes, and I am gay

Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use
 

I still want to know how you datamine an UNobserved hand. as far as I know, you've always had to be observing a table to collect the data. Not sitting there watching it, but you have to have the table open.

Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use
 

You can buy/share databases.

Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use
 

Only three minutes wasted replying and then wiping out my post. I'm getting better at this.

What's the over/under for worthless threads in the zoo for next year?

Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use
 

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There's a huge difference between datamining and collusion.

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HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!!! I datamine all the time, but I never collude nor share my data with anyone else.

Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use
 

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i dont see the option for:

"Bitter because I can't afford/can't figure out how to use PokerTracker"

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, so funny and SOOOOO TRUE

Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use
 

Greetings,

Thanks for the feedback and participation in the poll. I just wanted to address a few points and clarify my position on this issue. First of all, I am not opposed in way to using Pokertracker or similar programs that help you manage and interpet data from hands you participated in. For example, lets say you multi-table and simultaneously play 12 hands. My personal viewpoint is that it's perfectly acceptable to import the data from all these hands.

One poster says it's impossible to datamine unobserved hands. I think he basically claimed "datamining unobserved hands" was self-contradictory. Well, I guess that's how you define 'observe.' He thinks simply opening up the table constitutes observation? I think this isn't "observation" because you could simply open 15 tables, walk away (maybe take a nap or go shopping) and still get other people's data. Futhermore, as another poster pointed out, many players aren't even opening up tables. There is an active market for the sale or trade of hand histories.

Next, let me briefly address the criticism of my survey. I agree that my survey isn't scientifically valid or reliable. For one thing, any survey conducted here would be a 'straw poll' that would not be reflective of the general poker community. Next, somebody said I have an obvious 'bias.' I would not deny this. Futhermore, it might appear as though my survey questions are leading. While I didn't intend this, in retrospect it appears I could have simply made the options 'Yes' or 'No.'

Lastly, I think my opinion on data-mining is accurately reflected by Pokerstar's Terms and Service. This is taken verbatim from section 4.4: PokerStars defines an "Unfair Advantage" as a User accessing or compiling information on other players beyond that which the User has personally observed through the User's own game play. We encourage you to read our Prohibited Programs FAQ.

To reiterate, I would like to thank everybody for their feedback and comments!

JeffreyREBT "Wherein I don't promise to make you rich without trying, or even trying very hard; I do promise to say things that will make you FEEL rich."

Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use
 

Terribly biased poll, as others have pointed out.

I don't think third any third party software can be considered unethical unless it facilities collusion or involves hacking a sites servers or something similar. That being said, there's nothing wrong with terminating player accounts for using software that violates TOS, either. It's really up to the site to decide where to draw the line, whether that is realtime heads up displays, datamining, bots, whatever.

Is it worth losing high volume accounts over datamining observed hands? I'd guess not, considering people can almost as easily trade databases of hand histories to accomplish the same thing. My experience after many years of playing / developing MUD's / MMORG's is that it's best to let minor stuff slide, and crack down hard on the important things - collusion and bots in the case of poker.

Senni

Re: Ethics of Datamining/Banned Software use
 

I think you are misinterpreting PokerStars TOS. I know someone here emailed PS CS awhile ago and asked about this issue and posted the email he recieved here which was very detailed and specific. The gist of it was that datamining is ok, sharing your data with anyone else is not ok. I don't know if Stars policy on this has changed, but I haven't heard anything about it.