Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

I am a fatalist; I do not believe in free will. This is because I feel that my actions are controlled by my brain and my brain in turn is controlled by the laws of physics. There is no room in here for independent action.

I also do not believe in the natural value of morality. I do not believe that any actions are in and of themselves inherently right or wrong. While I do in almost all cases act in a moral way (I haven't murdered anyone, for example) I see no real reason to do this.

Because of these beliefs I am ethically off the hock if I kill / rape / steal etc. Not only is it NOT MY CHOICE (because I do not have free will) it's not "wrong" because I don't believe wrong exists.

This seems to me an unsatisfactory solution. What do I do?

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

Setting aside the issue of free will, I would say that your actions are constrained by the laws of physics, not controlled by them. The actions of an inanimate object like a pen are controlled by the laws of physics--if I hold the pen out to my side and let go of it, it will fall to the ground. If I hold my arm out to my side and let go of it, I can make it do anything I want it to do, within the contraints of the laws of physics. So, instead of falling down, I can actually make my arm rise.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

Can you actually? Think about it for a minute. Can you do anything other than what you actually do? What gives you that ability?

We are no different from highly complicated computers / animals.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

Reading Dennett's "Freedom Evolves" would be a good start. It'll give you a grasp of how freedom can exist and the errors of determinism.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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This seems to me an unsatisfactory solution. What do I do?

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Postulate the existance of a superior being who gave you a soul and free will. Problem solved.

Stu

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

Until you get into the logical inconsistancies with freewill and omniscience. Regardless, I am only willing to believe things which are logical to me. To do otherwise is irrational.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

Why don't you explain to me some of the main points? I apologize but I seem to have misplaced my copy of (random book) it must be in my other pants.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

"We are no different from highly complicated computers / animals."

Keep thinking like this and it will become a reality.

Or you can change your mind. Or does your mind change you?

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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Until you get into the logical inconsistancies with freewill and omniscience.

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A superior being is not by definition omniscience.

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Regardless, I am only willing to believe things which are logical to me. To do otherwise is irrational

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Are you saying its impossible for a superior being to create a biological machine? If so all those scientest working on creating life from scratch are wasting thier time.

Stu

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

If you are trying to turn this into a god argument well... go for it but I'm not gonna bite.

I am saying I cannot believe in things which are illogical. That is all.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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I am saying I cannot believe in things which are illogical. That is all.

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There is nothing illogical about the existance of superior beings. However, if you're unwilling to go down that road, then perhaps you should just postulate that you have free will and be done with it. The alternative is to live with your problem.

Stu

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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We are no different from highly complicated computers / animals.

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You speak in a lot of absolutes, you need more crayons. The difference in level of complexity between a frog and my laptop is noteworthy, no?

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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You speak in a lot of absolutes, you need more crayons.

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This is a lovely turn of phrase and I'm stealing it.

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The difference in level of complexity between a frog and my laptop is noteworthy, no?

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Which do you believe to be more complex, your laptop or a frog, just out of curiousity?

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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[/ QUOTE ] Which do you believe to be more complex, your laptop or a frog, just out of curiousity?

Frogs - 1,000,000 laptops 1 but gaining

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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Frogs - 1,000,000 laptops 1 but gaining

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Agreement and end of curiousity, then. Though there is an interesting model called Rana computatrix out there and I was vaguely thinking you might be thinking of that.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

I'm taking PHI 100 right now and some of the stuff is interesting, including the debate over free will and libertarianism and determinism. I don't think the idea of determinism is all that wrong. Would you not agree that all of your actions are caused by previous events? Explain one that didn't?

I'm not saying I'm a die hard determinist, but it is somewhat interesting.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

I have yet to see a particularly compelling argument against determinism. That said, it's clearly impossible to base your life on this doctrine. Even your question "what do i do?" makes no sense in a deterministic context. Why seek advice you're powerless to implement? Why complain about a solution being unsatisfactory if you're powerless to change it? Why even ask why about any of these things since you were powerless to do anything but make that post in the first place?

I think the solution is to accept determinism as being true and just file it away in the back of your mind, only to be pulled out in the case of extreme philosophical debate. Then live your life assuming that people have free will. It's not a particularly satisfying option intellectually, but I don't think an option like that exists.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

This is exactly the conclusion I have reached. In fact, your post is basically my exact thought process. This makes it at least a little more likely we have hit upon something here. I'm not happy about that : (

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

Unsatisfactory how? Why not just do what you consider to have value? Go for "+EV" in your life. If raping/killing/stealing will have good consequences for you, go for it.

Keep in mind that emotional consequences are very real, too. Even if doing "bad things" would result in some nominal gain, the feelings of guilt or shame may not be worth it. Reputation and risk of getting caught are also worth considering. But I don't think many "immoral" acts are wise or rational in the first place.

Another thing to consider are your standards of value and success. What are your goals? Objectively being happy is no better than being miserable, but I assume you have an ingrained preference for being happy. You may also have an ingrained preference for helping others to be happy rather than causing them to suffer. You may have a natural or conditioned desire to see yourself as a "good person." There are many reasons to act ethically that have nothing to do with a higher power or with notions of "free will."

Your choices may be predetermined, but that doesn't make them insignificant. The choices you make determine the entire course of your life. In a world with free will, you might be able to "change your ways" at some later date and recover, but in a causal universe there is no escaping the effects of what you do. So the idea of determinism hardly diminishes the significance of your immediate actions.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

Because I'm not actually making choices. Because I can't NOT do what I'm doing. Because I must do exactly what I'm doing.

That's depressing; however I am unwilling to simply change my viewpoint because I don't want to believe it.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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I am saying I cannot believe in things which are illogical. That is all.

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Well, you've decided that what you believe to be the truth about determinism and morality is in some way "bad" even though you don't believe in any absolute standard of goodness or morality. I wouldn't go off impugning other's rationality just yet.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Can you explain? When I say this state of beliefs is bad I don't mean bad as in morality, I mean bad as is this sucks.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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I'm not sure what you mean by this. Can you explain? When I say this state of beliefs is bad I don't mean bad as in morality, I mean bad as is this sucks.

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What difference does it make?

chez

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

What difference does what make?

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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What difference does what make?

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whether your will is free or not?

chez

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

I think it matters tremendously; specifically in holding yourself and others accountable for what you do. If someone had to do something it can't be right to judge them for what they do.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

You are making choices. The fact that will isn't "free" doesn't mean that will doesn't exist. I think you're overusing reductionism here. You are making choices, you are just making them according to logical processes.

When you make a choice, that whole process may exist as a series of predetermined chemical mechanics in your brain. But you still control the choice you make.

When you say that you can't not do what you are doing, you assume that you yourself are separate from your choice. But you aren't. You are a result of causal mechanics as much as anything else. To say you "can't choose not to choose what you choose" is like asking whether God can create something so heavy even he can't lift it. There is no "you" to not do what you're doing. You are part of your choices, your choices reflect you and you reflect them.

The assumption of some outside "agent" who is limited by determinism isn't consistent with the idea of determinism.

To put it another way, you don't have the ability to float into the air. Does that mean your body limits you? In a certain sense I suppose it does - but there would be no "you" to float into the air without your body. Regardless, being depressed because you can't magically "go against" gravity seems silly to me. I believe determinism and a desire to "go against" determinism are similar.

What is it in particular that makes you feel depressed?

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

<font color="blue"> This seems to me an unsatisfactory solution. What do I do? </font>

Design your life.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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I think it matters tremendously; specifically in holding yourself and others accountable for what you do. If someone had to do something it can't be right to judge them for what they do.

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It can't be wrong to judge them either.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

Can I not make this post?

I'm not really depressed. I'm actually quite a happy person. It's just the idea of not being able to do something else than what I do that get's me down.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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I think it matters tremendously; specifically in holding yourself and others accountable for what you do. If someone had to do something it can't be right to judge them for what they do.

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What makes it right to judge them if they do have free will?

Its not the point I was raising anyway. What I'm asking you is how you would behave differently if you discovered that your will was free?

chez

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

But you can do whatever you choose to do. The only things you can't do are the things you don't choose to do.

Why not choose to do something enjoyable? That might cheer you up and help you get your mind off it.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

If a man driving his car slips on the ice and hits another car filled with black people he should not be punished.

If a man driving his car decides he hates black people and bashes his car into a van full of black people he should be punished.

I can blame the person in the second example but not in the first.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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If a man driving his car slips on the ice and hits another car filled with black people he should not be punished.

If a man driving his car decides he hates black people and bashes his car into a van full of black people he should be punished.

I can blame the person in the second example but not in the first.

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That's because one is an act of will and one isn't, makes no difference if the will is free. In the second case we take action because the nature of that man (free will or not) is unacceptable to us.

chez

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

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I think it matters tremendously; specifically in holding yourself and others accountable for what you do. If someone had to do something it can't be right to judge them for what they do.

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You can't have it both ways. I'll go along with either. If they can't be judged because they don't have free will, then you can't judge them because you don't either. To judge is about making decisions, zombies can't be said to be doing that.

Determinism is no bar to free will.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

Why should an objective reality satisfy you? If anything is at fault surly it’s your expectations.

If you want satisfaction, you should design your own personal perception of reality, which can readily fit in with these expectations. Its what most other people do.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

"
Determinism is no bar to free will.
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Can you expand? I don't see how this is possible.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

No offense, but I think anyone who buys completely into determinism either secretly seeks to alleviate their responsibility or has no common sense whatsoever.

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While I do not live according to determinism, it does seem more rational. Name one decision you make that isn't due to some past event? I'm actually writing my final philosophy paper on determinism. In the paper, we are to discuss why determinism is right.. and then be able to give problems others will see with your arguments - and then prove those wrong.

My one question for determinists is if our actions are predeterminied, why then try to argue with others to prove them wrong. If they are libertarianists, then they can't help that. So why try to change their mind? (Does this make sense?)

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

Why? Because we can't not do it. Or, because we will do it.