get the hell out of my pot
 

What are the pro's and con's of calling the flop to push a nonspade turn? Will you ever be called by a weaker hand? Is the risk of running into a set here much too high?


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP2 ($1019.3)
MP3 ($616.8)
CO ($585.45)
Button ($467.55)
SB ($775.05)
BB ($609)
UTG ($114)
UTG+1 ($859.1)
UTG+2 ($434.05)
Hero ($460)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $3.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls $6, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $20</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls $20, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls $14.

Flop: ($69) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $35</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $105</font>, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls $70.

Turn: ($279) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero is all-In [$335].
Button ??

Re: get the hell out of my pot
 

if i was gonna do this... id rather push the flop where you might get called by a worse hand.

Re: get the hell out of my pot
 

why such a small raise pf? you're allowing people in for cheap especially when there's a limper

you're allowing a lot of implied odds to take you down

as for post flop play, i'd probably call the flop and check the turn and play it from there. i don't think there's any value in moving in on that turn as you lose FTOP wise. no draw will call unless they are fishy, and you let a hand like TT/JJ/QQ off the hook easy.

Re: get the hell out of my pot
 

kagame, this situation and play has been stirring in my head as well.

Whenever I do this and opponent folds, intially I am happy that I wasn't up against a set, but could I have I gained more???

Not a fan of this play OOP....
Opponent-
1) might catch you on the turn
2) you might get slowed down by a bad turn and lose value, or even the whole pot. Ace, or 9, or [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].


3) Worst case he's got u beat on the flop anyway.

If 3) is true then reraising the flop
OR
check raising the turn all in will net you more money.

Please plug the holes in this logic if they're there.

Re: get the hell out of my pot
 

I tend to post hands that I play in a manner at least slightly divergent from my usual line, to get feedback. So thanks!

When I cold called the flop I noticed the As is not a bad card for me on the turn, (even though I put my opponent on holding it).

I also thought I would still be called most of the time by another overpair but not by a flush draw, which was my intention, to blast out the draw after refusing to coinflip on the flop.

I do wonder how much I'm letting a marginal overpair off the hook, but I would say my play looks excessively powerful and would induce a call from weaker hands, stop and go seems to confuse weaker opponents, perhaps frustrate them to call.

Your points about the flop rereraise, I feel that looks stronger than a turn all in, might achieve the same scare effect; and has the disadvantage of not punishing the draw.

CHeck raising the turn would be superior ASSUMING OPPONENT WILL ACTUALLY BET, would a flush draw do so or check behind? Personally I often wonder if this leaves too much up to my opponents wishes, he will usually only bet if he beats me or perhaps has QQ/JJ.

Re: get the hell out of my pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
why such a small raise pf? you're allowing people in for cheap especially when there's a limper



[/ QUOTE ]

I've asked this before, but I still haven't had anyone give me a satisfactory answer:
Is varrying your raise size pre flop a good idea and if so how do you vary it?

I always open raise the same amount, raise one limper the same amount, with 2 or more limpers I vary my raises some, but I raise less often after multiple limpers.

I tend to mix up what I raise with to disguise my hand. I just don't see how varying your raise size, unless it is by something neutral like position, is a good idea. Even if you employ some degree of randomness, you still leak information if the distributions for raise size depend at all on your hand. (e.g. with AA you raise 5BB 70%, 4BB 20%, 3BB 10% vice with 78s in the same position you raise 5BB 10%, 4BB 20%, 3BB 70%, the preceding on the contingency you raise and don't limp). Maybe people just are not perceptive enough to figure out "if he is raising 5BB, there is a much greater chance he has AA than 78s, though he has raised 78s 5BB in the past".

At any rate, since I like to raise pairs a lot first in, and will often raise some other hands for deception value first in, it seems like I am faced either with having to raise weaker hands more (in terms of BB), or letting people to the flop cheeply with my big pairs. I choose the latter, is this something I should be rethinking?

Re: get the hell out of my pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
At any rate, since I like to raise pairs a lot first in, and will often raise some other hands for deception value first in, it seems like I am faced either with having to raise weaker hands more (in terms of BB), or letting people to the flop cheeply with my big pairs. I choose the latter, is this something I should be rethinking?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like to raise my big pairs bigger than normal if I can. I get away with this by always raising huge from the blinds or the button, maybe the CO if there are limpers in (or raises). If I raise from the blinds, I usually bet 1.5 to 2x the current pot either w/ high pocket pairs or garbage. From the button, I'll put in a 1x - 1.5x pot raise (sometimes more) w/ high pockets, AK, and mid suited connectors some percentage of the time. It helps if there are limpers there.

From other positions, I like to limp-reraise or put in a standard raise. If there's limpers, then I make it more. My open raise is usually consistent though, which I will do with many hands - or at most vary by 1-2 BB.

So I am guilty of in general leaking some info about my hand preflop by raising bigger w/ pocket pairs. I'll let you in on a secret - I still get plenty of action at 5-10. It also generally matters who's in the pot w/ you as well.

Re: get the hell out of my pot
 

If you allin the flop, opponent is folding anything that's not a monster draw, QQ, or 2p/set. I like the ol' "hesitate for a long time, call flop raise, then check-raise turn all-in" line, it works a lot.

Your line kills the odds for a draw, is the advantage; it doesn't get max action from mid pairs though.

Re: get the hell out of my pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
why such a small raise pf? you're allowing people in for cheap especially when there's a limper

[/ QUOTE ]

2x the pot size pre-flop has always seemed pretty standard to me. What would you recommend here?

Marlow
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: get the hell out of my pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
2x the pot size pre-flop has always seemed pretty standard to me. What would you recommend here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if he raised the pot here preflop, it would be ($3 + $6 + $6 + $6) = $21, so he would have to raise to $27 for a pot sized raise preflop. 2x the pot raise would be to $48.

In this hand, I would have raised about the pot, probably to $24 or so.