Trips versus Two Tone flop -- puzzled
 

Upon review of my biggest hand losers, I discovered that many involved instances when a pocket pair improved to trips on the flop only to be beaten by four flush drawer.

The majority of the time after hitting the trips, seeing the potential 4 flush draw, I would bet aggressively to take away the odds from the potential drawer-- pot sized bets, 2x pot bets-- only to be met with calls. Seems no matter what, including pushing all-in, some people will always take their suited cards on a four flush draw all the way to the river.

I know, in some of these instances, they had other outs as well, perhaps they had TPTK, 2 pair etc., but I am really wondering what can be done to disuade the 10-2 suited drawers from taking such bold chances?

Even though the specific play of an individual may be a long term loser, i.e., playing suited trash in hopes of a hitting a flush, the independent actions of several loose players has resulted in many a man's short term losses.

Any advice?

Thanks

Re: Trips versus Two Tone flop -- puzzled
 

First of all, if you're routinely losing money with set vs. flush draw, either

(1) you don't have a big enough sample and are running bad (my guess) or

(2) you're calling too many big bets after the flush hits and paying off flushes, giving them outrageous implied odds.

How big a sample are we talking?

[ QUOTE ]
I know, in some of these instances, they had other outs as well, perhaps they had TPTK, 2 pair etc., but I am really wondering what can be done to disuade the 10-2 suited drawers from taking such bold chances?

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This is a big problem in your thinking. (I'm new to NLHE so others should correct me as needed, but based on GSIH and Harrington I'm pretty sure i'm right.) You want flush draws to gamble, provided they're paying too much to do so.

Sometimes they hit. More often they don't. When they don't, if they're getting poor odds, they'll pay off more than they'll win when they hit.

If you're pushing all-in and people call with a draw, that's GREAT! If they hit, there's nothing more for them to win. When they don't hit, you double off. Unless they have a 50%+ draw (straight flush draw with two overcards, for example, with two cards to come) you'll make money by their calls. You couldn't ask for a better result.

If you knew they wouldn't call all your stack but would call 60% of your stack, that's what you should bet. Whatever the maximum is you think they'll call incorrectly, that's what you want to bet.

Re: Trips versus Two Tone flop -- puzzled
 

If you have trips and they have a four flush. You must remember that you still have 10 outs on the turn to beat their flush assuming they make it on the turn. Play by the odds and you will win more than you lose. Just remember to not pay off their big bets when they make the flush.

Re: Trips versus Two Tone flop -- puzzled
 

I trust the theory and know you guys are right.

I guess I am trying to

1) understand the style of the player willing to call bets with a negative expectation

2) estimate the effect such player's contribute to variance and/or my own expectations.

For example, if there are 5 maniacs at a full table willing to chase a four flush at any price, what adjustments should a player competing against them make?

Appreciate the advice.

Re: Trips versus Two Tone flop -- puzzled
 

[ QUOTE ]
I trust the theory and know you guys are right.

I guess I am trying to

1) understand the style of the player willing to call bets with a negative expectation


[/ QUOTE ]

It's not negative expectation if the implied odds are there. I'll gladly take a slightly -EV pot odds call on the flop if I know that on the turn I can get your whole stack because you can't lay down trips, even on a 3-flush board.

Re: Trips versus Two Tone flop -- puzzled
 

People like to gamble. I've played against people on party who push all in on every flush draw they get. (If you can't tell, I lost a good chunk of change as the guy hit 4 out of 5 against me)

These type players have a huge influence on your variance. Some days they make you, and other days they can break you. If you are playing within your bankroll and confident that you are ahead, push hard when you know they will call.

I think most new players (myself included) will tend to take one off if drawing to a flush for even a pot size bet. For some reason, it's just too tempting. Most starting, new players don't consider pot odds/implied odds. They know that another heart will give them a really strong hand, and there are maybe 9 left to catch.