Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]


I did write in one of the previous posts that this was an easy fold. That was supposed to be obvious sarcasm.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn, I missed the sarcasm.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

I personally think you just made a laydown that kept u in the tournament. Congrats.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

Just where do I find that HH, btw? I've been searching for it but no joy.

And I have to admit, I think this is a straight, mathematically bad fold. (Based on his books, his most probably hand might be J4.) But hey, I'm not on the WPT, I guess you're doing something right...

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

I'd estimate there is an 85% chance that you folded the best hand here. Needless to say, if you are playing to win the tournament, that would be a clear error.

Reraise on the flop enough so that Action Dan has poor drawing odds. Most likely he will lay his hand down. If he calls or pushes, you can decide whether you want to push.

This laydown is the tactical equivalent of laying down KK pre-flop because your opponent "appears" to have pocket AA.

One more thing to add - if Dan has the set of 3s, you still have 4 outs for the bigger boat.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
This laydown is the tactical equivalent of laying down KK pre-flop because your opponent "appears" to have pocket AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's interesting, because I could think of a few scenarios where I'd do this given those stack sizes. More so than folding top two in Gigabets situation..

But I don't necessarily agree that getting all the chips in at some point is the best idea.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

I really think it's difficult for either of those hands to raise the turn given hero's actions. Of all the possible hands that Dan could have, those two are pretty much the only ones that unequivocally DO NOT want to be pushed on. Dan knows this and would not risk it there.

2pr, overpair, or TPGK however... Well I believe that a lot more. And of course there is 33,JJ,TT.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

If Action Dan is willing to call or reraise a HUGE flop re-raise, then that would certainly give me pause for thought.

Giga would still have enough chips left after a flop reraise to reconsider and try to get a read before committing all his chips - or folding. The most important thing about this hypothetical flop reraise is that it should be big enough to convey the clear message to Action Dan that he's probably going to have to risk almost all his chips to win this pot.

That way, you can:

1) put pressure on Dan
2) gain better information about what he is holding

The way Giga plays the flop and turn doesn't define Dan's hand as well as it could.

And Dan will have to think seriously about the possibility of Giga having a set and of possibly being crippled (or out) if he pushes.

And an earlier poster is right in thinking Dan might have AA,KK or QQ here. This is precisely the type of situation Dan would slowplay these hands (against a single opponent, with position, and a safe flop)

Congratulations on a classic Hellmuthian laydown.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

There are a lot of heart tens in the deck.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

I've already spotted that on page 1. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've already spotted that on page 1. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]I only read the posts from the big-name posters before posting about the two heart tens. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I had 72o,

[/ QUOTE ]

This does not seem likely. Not only is it a junk hand, but it is a famous classic junk hand. Most readers, being poker players, have a feel for what is plausible.

I think this leads people to question whether you really had JTo in the main hand being discussed.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

I played lots of junk hands, and even had to show some of them down. Do you really think i use hand selection for a foundation of my game? Go look at the live updates from the world series, at pokerwire. See if you can find a premium hand that was shown by me. You could make it a game, kind of like Where's Waldo.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I played lots of junk hands, and even had to show some of them down. Do you really think i use hand selection for a foundation of my game? Go look at the live updates from the world series, at pokerwire. See if you can find a premium hand that was shown by me. You could make it a game, kind of like Where's Waldo.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen you show down plenty of extreme junk hands. However, if you said you had 85o, it would be more plausible than 72o.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]

I think he shows his final stack at the EOD to justify his laydown as he has EV in the tournament. Sure he has EV, but how much?


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

I think a lot of other people also justify his play by saying, "look how many chips he has now."

Think of how many he could have had!

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

i think, if your going to limp in then you have to go with it when you hit a big hand. if your going to fold to pressure then why not raise preflop or just fold? When you limp its relying too much on luck and the weakness of the other player. sick fold.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

Well I get hard-ons reading some of your HHs but I hate the way you played this the whole way.

On the flop you make a pot size bet (a little over for the sticklers, yes but not much). I'm guessing this has been a common move for you throughout the tournament and is the play you would be expected to do postflop by Dan. Dan now overbets the pot. What hands can you put him on here? Considering your extrememly lag image a very wide range I would say. Dan uses his tight image to his advantage and is defintely going to try to exploit it against a LAG like you who will even laydown monsters in this situation.

AA-QQ, KQ, Q9, 89s, Any Jack, A Ten w/ an over, T3, 33, and a pure bluff.

I feel you give him credit for having a much narrower range of hands then he actually has. You were mainly concerned with 33, and while the TJ presents draws on the board from Dan’s POV I don't think it is likely he would push a set this hard since right now he has no information on the strength on your hand. With a raise this big he is likely to get you off a hand. With a smaller raise you will likely call and lead the turn. However, since this is being played on a very high level you get a lot what does he think, I think, he thinks, I think and on and on so reads, the players mindset, and all the previous hands become crucial but just viewing it on paper I’m trying to do what I can.

When the turn comes you lead again and Dan puts in a respectable raise. This narrowing his range down to:

AA-QQ, AJ, KJ, QJ, JT, J4, J3, T3, 33

The only hand in this range that beats us is 33, which I felt Dan wouldn’t be likely to play that way on the flop, but again I’m going from one cold hand with no other info so your reads are better then what I can say. The problem is the way this was played the only way to further define is to re-raise which will get AK-AJ, AA-QQ and leave the hands JT, J3, 33, and J4 and T3 which you hadn’t mentioned. I feel you’re ahead here. Regardless of what the river is it will likely be an expensive street to see the showdown and your fold came simply down to an ICM evaluation in your eyes, which I can understand, but I feel you made the incorrect choice.

I think you failed to define your hand and gave Harrington too much credit for a holding. I haven’t had any sleep in four days but once I’m rested I’ll post some potential alternative lines and do some work on the ICM (or someone else can save me the trouble and do all of this while I sleep) and everyone can go from there.


On a side note you’re somewhat of a professional idol to me so if you could let me know what you think of my reasoning now and in the future or just point out everything I type is incoherent babble that would be cool.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

I mean no offense, but Harrington outplayed Darrell on this hand.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I mean no offense, but Harrington outplayed Darrell on this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably true, and also nothing to be ashamed of.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If this was anyone but Gigabet there wouldn't even be a discussion except maybe to post this pic:

http://lightsout.onestop.net/noose.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

spot on

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

I don't think Dan played that well. I think Darrell played the hand poorly.

Like many, I still am not sure if I believe this post because its so ... unsavory.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Both this and the 72o hand (which I don't think is anywhere near what you really had) are completely retarded, so congratulations. Why is it you never post hands where the action is, you know, the right one? Instead it's obscure and intensely questionable plays designed to make it look like your game is so far beyond the rest of ours that we can't possibly fathom it. Have you ever done something normal, like open with AA, or fold 83o?

[/ QUOTE ]

What in the world kinda stupid post was that.

So you're saying you would rather see posts that have obvious answers ?

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

I can only fold this hand against a very bad, very predictable, super-easy to read player. Against a decent player, I can't see this fold being good.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

For the record, I don't understand this play at all.

eastbay

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Both this and the 72o hand (which I don't think is anywhere near what you really had) are completely retarded, so congratulations. Why is it you never post hands where the action is, you know, the right one? Instead it's obscure and intensely questionable plays designed to make it look like your game is so far beyond the rest of ours that we can't possibly fathom it. Have you ever done something normal, like open with AA, or fold 83o?

[/ QUOTE ]

good post pax. I totally agree.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

I don't have a problem believing it at all. This same tourney he busted a guy after calling a raise PF with 75o, last spring (I think) he busted out of a big tournement when he reraised all in against Gavin with nothing. Giga doesn't have a problem betting crap if he thinks it will work, and has been caught at it often enough that it can be accepted as fact. Givin that, there is no reason to no to believe him this time.

Steve

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

Yeh, he probably did have 72o. I have been at his table a few times, and he seems to show down a lot of unsuited hands 8 high or lower. Part of it is he plays the situation and can read/bluff to get maximum value from a weak hand. However, I think he partly plays hands like that for psychological effect.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can only fold this hand against a very bad, very predictable, super-easy to read player. Against a decent player, I can't see this fold being good.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you play the rest of the hand here? Do you just push when it gets back to you on the turn? If not, what do you do on the river?

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

All of you are missing a very important aspect of this hand that seperates it from any hand that most of you have ever played. I don't necessarily agree with the hand, but I am open minded enough to see the reasons behind it.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

lol.... PLEASE SHARE YOUR HIDDEN REASONS

they better not include:
not going broke in an unraised pot
still enough chips to play big stack poker
creating an image for later play
or anything else people have brought up.

Lets hear it.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

I'm always amazed by the sense of entitlement people on this (and others) board have.

The answers don't have to be in the back of the book to make the problem worth attempting to solve.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm always amazed by the sense of entitlement people on this (and others) board have.

The answers don't have to be in the back of the book to make the problem worth attempting to solve.

[/ QUOTE ]

That may be so, but I nor the majority of the forum can simply come up with the answer to lucky's problem. It's like asking a 7th grader to solve a calculus problem.

Lucky, some hints would be nice.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably donk it and just check/call all the way, maybe leading a little on the river. I wouldn't want to go broke in this spot, especially with those chips, but I still don't think I could fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why play this hand, or any hand for that for that matter, if you cannot get real value. If I am check calling, trying to get a cheap showdown, I add right around 10% to my stack(I imagine the pot would be around 12k at the showdown), that is for the times that I win. The times that I lose the hand, playing that way, I will lose more than 10% of my stack, because he is going to be betting more, making the pot larger, and allowing himself to make even larger bets on subsequent streets.

This line of play is a leak, that I see all of the time. Most players know that in situations where you are either way ahead or way behind, that it becomes obvious that either raising or folding is much better decision than all others if you could see the others cards. But since the cards cannot be seen, most players choose the middle ground, which is to call. That is faulty thinking, it is almost always better to pick one of the options that has a chance to be much better than all other possible decisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

But how does calling the flop and donk-betting the turn gain the most value? Why didn't you reraise the flop or check/raise the turn then? Do you think Dan is paying off turn and river value bets with a worst hand? Do you think he is folding a better hand? I understand what you are saying about getting value, but I don't agree that your line gets the most value.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

It just seems that a tight thinking player would be willing to throw a lot of chips around in a blind to blind confrontation against you.

I personally think you made a mistake in calling his flop raise and leading the turn again. If you had the intent to do this, wouldn't reraising the flop help define both your hands a lot better?

But I think with the spot you got yourself into, the fold is correct becuase you have no good line for the river.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Both this and the 72o hand (which I don't think is anywhere near what you really had) are completely retarded, so congratulations. Why is it you never post hands where the action is, you know, the right one? Instead it's obscure and intensely questionable plays designed to make it look like your game is so far beyond the rest of ours that we can't possibly fathom it. Have you ever done something normal, like open with AA, or fold 83o?

[/ QUOTE ]

Next Gigabet post should read something like this.

"1500 players left , Stars $11 rebuy. I have AA UTG first hand and I raise to 120 chips. The big blind reraises for his whole stack, and I call.

My reasoning in this spot was that a) I can rebuy and b) I know I have the best hand.

I hope that thinking about this play, particuarly the size of the preflop raise, will encourage others to think about new and challenging situations that they have never been in before."

Lori

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Next Gigabet post should read something like this.

"1500 players left , Stars $11 rebuy. I have AA UTG first hand and I raise to 120 chips. The big blind reraises for his whole stack, and I call.

My reasoning in this spot was that a) I can rebuy and b) I know I have the best hand.

I hope that thinking about this play, particuarly the size of the preflop raise, will encourage others to think about new and challenging situations that they have never been in before."

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. There are an awful lot of posts like the above and Gigabet does post interesting situations.

The 72o hand is quite possible given Gigabet's style. He certainly could have just been bluffing with some junk hand.

The Harrington hand, however, just doesn't make sense unless there is something everyone is missing. Gigabet is only behind a set. According to his book, Harrington randomizes his play, so he might have flat called with 33 or 44, but he probably would have raised. Secondly, Harrington's flop play does not seem likely with a set or a weak underpair. Thirdly, this is blind versus blind versus an aggressive bluffer, so Harrington could be bluffing or have the same or weaker 2 pair. Granted, the way Harrington is playing it, he has to have a big hand or be bluffing or semibluffing big.

The key questions are would Harrington play J3 or T3 this way? How likely is it that Harrington is bluffing or on a draw? Would Harrington play 33 or 44 this way?

If you are Harrington and you have J3, how worried are you? Gigabet didn't raise preflop, so he probably doesn't have a pair and a lot of people would raise with JT. Gigabet is aggressive, but unpredictable, so 33, 44, and JT are possible, but unlikely.

I also think there is a good chance Harrington would play a straight draw this way, given Harrington's TAG style and Gigabet's reputation. He also likes to use his tight image to make big bluffs against LAGs.

It seems like the possibilities of a weaker 2 pair or a bluff or semibluff are more likely than a set.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
All of you are missing a very important aspect of this hand that seperates it from any hand that most of you have ever played. I don't necessarily agree with the hand, but I am open minded enough to see the reasons behind it.

[/ QUOTE ]

such as, playing against Dan Harrington? quite different, indeed!

after dan's raise: ~58K in pot
left to call: 18K
Giga's stack-18K= ~82K

I think that Giga would have to raise all in just to deny dan pot odds for most drawing hands, and perhaps that isn't wise at this stage in the mtt. I know people aren't thinking that dan has something along those lines, but against someone like giga, playing a drawing hand aggressively might be the correct play. just thought I'd throw that out there.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
such as, playing against Dan Harrington? quite different, indeed!

after dan's raise: ~58K in pot
left to call: 18K
Giga's stack-18K= ~82K

I think that Giga would have to raise all in just to deny dan pot odds for most drawing hands, and perhaps that isn't wise at this stage in the mtt. I know people aren't thinking that dan has something along those lines, but against someone like giga, playing a drawing hand aggressively might be the correct play. just thought I'd throw that out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying you should fold top 2 pair on the turn, because you might be up against a straight draw?

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
such as, playing against Dan Harrington? quite different, indeed!

after dan's raise: ~58K in pot
left to call: 18K
Giga's stack-18K= ~82K

I think that Giga would have to raise all in just to deny dan pot odds for most drawing hands, and perhaps that isn't wise at this stage in the mtt. I know people aren't thinking that dan has something along those lines, but against someone like giga, playing a drawing hand aggressively might be the correct play. just thought I'd throw that out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying you should fold top 2 pair on the turn, because you might be up against a straight draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't know what I'm saying. :P

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
i don't know what I'm saying. :P

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i don't know what I'm saying. :P

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously.

[/ QUOTE ]

just trying to figure out the rationale of someone who plays levels MUCH higher than i do [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]