Re: I think I finally learning
 

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I think that is pretty much the exact cutoff hand for most opponents where all better ones will call, and all worse ones will fold with a board like this.

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Villain could be raising pf w/ATs, A9s or even a higher Ax like AK, AQ. Do you really think he'll call w/those hands after my play throughout the hand

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That is why a read on my opponent would be extremely useful. I think the answer is actually "yes" to a lot of the above. With a lot of opponents who do not play very well, I would not be surprised to see A8 call. A high is basically the nuts on a board like this [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: I think I finally learning
 

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Do you usually 3-bet pf with KQo after a limp and a raise?

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5 handed? 100% of the time.

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Wouldn't it be read dependent?

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Not usually. It's a default play of mine. Sure there are times when I CC with KQ/AJ and there are times when I fold AJ/KQ to a raise but these times are rare and 98% of the time, it's 3 bets with KQ/AJo

Re: I think I finally learning
 

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I don't know if we can value 3-bet pf due to the risk of domination OOP.

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In shorthanded games, the risk of domination is much lower. This is a pretty standard 3-bet against most opponents.

Re: I think I finally learning
 

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I think that is pretty much the exact cutoff hand for most opponents where all better ones will call, and all worse ones will fold with a board like this.

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Villain could be raising pf w/ATs, A9s or even a higher Ax like AK, AQ. Do you really think he'll call w/those hands after my play throughout the hand

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This is very player dep. and IME at 3/6 i get called here by Ax almost always, but some players will fold. If he is reasonable then this is probably +EV.

Re: I think I finally learning
 

I like the river bet by itself, but I think the turn is much more interesting. I don't like it. Look at the board. All PPs are calling. All Aces are calling with the gutshot/overcard outs.

Now I'm trying to think how else to play the hand. Check/calling the turn and bet/folding a river blank doesn't seem like it will ever work. Is firing a turn bet and planning on firing a blank river worth it in a pot this size, given that a PP calls both, A high might call both (AK and AQ almost always will), and his hand might hit? At the same time I don't know if I like giving up.

I'll have to think about it some more. Any reads? That might help.

Re: I think I finally learning
 

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Do you usually 3-bet pf with KQo after a limp and a raise?

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If you're comfortable 3betting AJ, you should definitely be 3betting KQ.

Re: I think I finally learning
 

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I like the river bet by itself, but I think the turn is much more interesting. I don't like it. Look at the board. All PPs are calling. All Aces are calling with the gutshot/overcard outs.

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This is true and part of the reason I posted the hand. I do feel that the turn and river are a combined play b/c one sets up ther other. Many hands that villain will hold will call the turn but fold the river UI. If I give up the lead on the turn I have almost no chance of winning the pot. If the gut shot wasn't there, a case could be made for c/ring the the turn but in this case I don't like that line.

I feel that I could prolly get hands like KJ, KQ, QJs to fold the turn but I'm far ahead of them that it doesn't matter too much if they fold. The real problem is that they can bet the turn and it leaves me in a tough spot for the rest of the hand.

On top of that, if I check the turn, I can't hope to fold hands like Ax on the river

Re: I think I finally learning
 

I understand the dilemna, I just don't know if this pot is worth it given his range, the chances of already being beat and A high calling down anyway. Though you could spike a K or Q I guess.

Re: I think I finally learning
 

The pot is almost 5bbs, thats a pretty decent sized pot

Re: I think I finally learning
 

Hmmm... I'll repost my thoughts in a different way as to why I don't like this river bet. I think you have decent fold equity on the turn from crappy Ax hands, as they don't have odds to draw. The turn bet is good IMO.

On the river, for this bet to be profitable, he has to fold a better hand ~1/7 times. There is also the factor of him calling a worse hand, though that is nearly negligible with most opponents.

With a board like this, he is going to fold a pocket pair never.

He is going to fold AK practically never.

He is going to fold AQ sometimes, but still not too often IMO.

He will fold A7-AJ reasonably often, but definetly not always. If he is going to call a turn bet getting 6:1 with A7-AJ, I think this is often because he plans to go to showdown. On the turn, he should see that he is
1. Drawing dead
2. Dominated by a better A and drawing to 3 outs
3. Behind a PP and likely drawing to 3 outs (sometimes 6, but rarely)
4. Ahead
The only one of those scenarios where is is even close to good enough to call is Ahead. If he was willing to call the turn, there is a high chance that he will call the river. You may want to argue that a lot of players aren't skilled enough to think about a hand in terms of outs like this, however, I think that it is these unskilled types that also like to showdown A high on a raggedy board.