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-   -   How much respect do I give this guy? (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=216256)

FoxwoodsFiend 03-19-2005 04:44 PM

How much respect do I give this guy?
 
5/10 live game at the casino morongo.
UTG is a supertight old player who has only pushed in twice, once with a set on the turn and the other time with a nut flush. I've seen him play K10 suited for a decent pot, but only with position and he doesn't even raise with QQ in MP preflop. Button is just a complete idiot-he's called my reraise for $200 preflop with A5 suited and puts in a small raise on the button every hand.
UTG has $1000, Button has $4000, I have $3300.
I'm dealt K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the big blind. UTG limps. Folded to the button who makes it 25. I call, UTG calls.
Flop comes down K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
I check, UTG bets 35, Button calls. I raise to $135. UTG and button call.
Turn comes K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] I bet out for $120, two callers.
River comes 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
At this point, I'm worried about what UTG could have so I check. I check, he immediately moves all-in for $720. Button folds. Do I call or fold in this spot?

flawless_victory 03-19-2005 04:56 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
i would fold here. fast. but i surely would not have CRed this flop...

aggie 03-19-2005 05:02 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
you're getting over 2-1 on your money....He could have k-j, k-10, or some other hand...I think you need to call

aggie 03-19-2005 05:03 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
Another factor, is that this guy previously pushed all in on the turn when he had a set....Call!

KaneKungFu123 03-19-2005 05:04 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
[ QUOTE ]
you're getting over 2-1 on your money....He could have k-j, k-10, or some other hand...I think you need to call

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a fold and its not close.

aggie 03-19-2005 05:09 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
[ QUOTE ]
this is a fold and its not close.

[/ QUOTE ]

care to elaborate?....I think you are wrong...It's definitely close...

aggie 03-19-2005 05:11 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
On another note, i really hate the check on the river here (unless the button is a habitual bluffer like me).

chuddo 03-19-2005 05:14 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
i would have bet 250 or so on the river into him, as he will just call with a weaker K if your hand is good.

he could have flopped a set and looked to jam the turn to out-price the diamond draw, but he managed to fill up and wanted the idiot button to come along and pay him off on the river.

2-1 on your call isn't enough here to make the crying call i dont think, as i expect your hand to be good a far less time than that.

Komodo 03-19-2005 05:18 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
What have you put him on? a full house or AK?
Could you elaborate a little on this "Its not even close"?

FoxwoodsFiend 03-19-2005 05:19 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
I guess I should add I definitely put the button on diamonds and was ready to pick off any bet he might make, though he isn't a huge bluffer so I didn't think I'd need to.

Mad Genius1 03-19-2005 05:30 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


this is a fold and its not close.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's definately close. UTG would have raised at some point with 44 or 99. Obviously he doesn't have 88 or K4/K9/K8. The only hand hero really has to worry about is AK. AK is probably the most likely hand but KQ, KJ and KT aren't out of the question as someone else pointed out. I do get a sense that UTG isn't sure about his hand until the river, where hero shows a lot of weakness.

I would probably still fold but this is definately not clear-cut.

flawless_victory 03-19-2005 05:35 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
[ QUOTE ]
UTG would have raised at some point with 44 or 99.

[/ QUOTE ]SAYS WHO? i think he has one of these hands the majority of the time.

soah 03-19-2005 05:41 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
Remember the secion in Ciaffone/Reuben's book about beating the bully? There's one pretty nice quote in there along the lines of "Don't let the bully run you into the nuts." You see that the button is always raising when he has the button, and you figure KQ is in great shape againt him, so you call. Problem is that there's a rock who has limped in UTG, and you've seen him limp in previously with big hands. Do you really want to play KQ out of position against this guy in a raised pot?

I suppose your thinking was that the rock, being the rock that he is, would likely get out of the way if he didn't flop a huge hand, and you could just tangle with the moron on the button. Or if the rock came to life and you didn't have the nuts, you'd get away cheaply. But then your flop play makes no sense. You flop top pair, and checkraise the rock?! What are you hoping to accomplish there? Are you trying to make him fold (and if so, what hand do you put him on)? Trying to build a pot? Neither objective makes much sense with top pair/second kicker.

Your turn bet was awfully weak. About 1/4 pot it looks like. Once again, what are you trying to accomplish? On the river you fold. You've told UTG you have a king, and he doesn't care.

KaneKungFu123 03-19-2005 05:43 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
[ QUOTE ]
UTG is a supertight old player

[/ QUOTE ]

Again. Its not even close.

soah 03-19-2005 05:53 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
[ QUOTE ]
It's definately close. UTG would have raised at some point with 44 or 99. Obviously he doesn't have 88 or K4/K9/K8. The only hand hero really has to worry about is AK. AK is probably the most likely hand but KQ, KJ and KT aren't out of the question as someone else pointed out. I do get a sense that UTG isn't sure about his hand until the river, where hero shows a lot of weakness.

I would probably still fold but this is definately not clear-cut.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are making an awful lot of assumptions which are not based on any of the information provided. Who says UTG would have raised at some point with a set? It's very plausible that he was planning to let Hero bet out on the turn to pot commit himself, and then he could push to drive out the button (who may be chasing a flush). But when he fills up he decides to let the button overcall drawing dead instead. Why do you think that KQ/KJ/KT are all likely hands for him? We were told that this guy seems to be aware of positional considerations, and that he is "supertight." How many "supertight" players limp UTG with KT? Would he call a checkraise from a solid player with top pair and a trash kicker? Would he push the river with such a hand after Hero has already represented strong hand as well? If he is that confident that he has Hero beaten, and does not have a full house, then why wouldn't he raise the turn to avoid letting the button draw at a flush cheaply?

fsuplayer 03-19-2005 06:02 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
why are you CRing a tight UTG's bet into a pfr?

but since you did, once he calls, you are in bad shape, and the K on the turn doesnt change much..

as it was, this is a very easy fold w/o a big read.

so i pretty much agree w KangFu on this one.

Mad Genius1 03-19-2005 06:03 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
You are right. I made a mental error forgetting that a set would have filled up on the turn. My thinking was that on the turn, with a set UTG would almost be forced to raise given that button is most likely on the flush draw. But that's not the case.

There is still a possibility that he has KT/KJ though. How do I know that? Because hero says that UTG previously played a big pot with KT. I do agree that it would be unlikely that a tight player called a flop raise with just TPNK but I can see him having KT or KJ of diamonds. Not likely, which is why I said I would fold as well, but a small chance nevertheless.

soah 03-19-2005 06:18 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
[ QUOTE ]
There is still a possibility that he has KT/KJ though. How do I know that? Because hero says that UTG previously played a big pot with KT.

[/ QUOTE ]

The full quote was "I've seen him play K10 suited for a decent pot, but only with position." From that I infer that Hero does not believe this player would be playing KT from UTG. Is it possible that Hero's read was wrong? Of course. But I'm just going by what was posted.

FoxwoodsFiend 03-19-2005 06:44 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
[ QUOTE ]
why are you CRing a tight UTG's bet into a pfr?


[/ QUOTE ]
Because I don't feel like check-folding for a 35 dollar bet into a 145 dollar pot when I'm pretty positive I have the button beat and feel I can get UTG out of this pot. Are you trying to tell me that pushing off a tight player who weak leads into two players with a check-raise is inadvisable? I was ready to slow down/give up the hand once they both called, but hitting trips on the turn made me reconsider my line.

fsuplayer 03-19-2005 06:52 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
ok, ill give you the flop CR, but what does trips do for you, other than tell you that both players dont have a king now?

it now makes UTG more likely to have a set turned house, esp. when he moves in on the river.

FoxwoodsFiend 03-19-2005 07:01 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
Granted the king doesn't make my hand invulnerable or anything. But what should my line have been? Check fold? That seems too weak. Better to block bet the turn to give everybody a chance to define their hands and get more information. If I am beat and I check, I'll probably have to face a bigger bet than what I put out there so unless you're advocating folding the turn it seems like a feeler bet was called for there.

youngin20 03-19-2005 10:53 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
I hate the river check. Bet. I think with the check, he puts you on something other than a king.. (who would check trips with 2nd best kicker?) I think the push is a result of your looking weak by checkign. He puts the button on diamonds, I say you can call here, but then again, I dont give a crap about him being a rock. Even rocks use that to their advantage sometimes. Basically it depends on whether or not you think he is decent enough to react to your check here. Thoughts?

JaBlue 03-19-2005 11:26 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
Why are you inducing a bluff if you're not going to call it?

Also once you are called on the flop, you should shut down against tighty. He's not limping in EP with a worse king.

Easy fold.

FoxwoodsFiend 03-20-2005 12:41 AM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
I'm thinking button MIGHT bluff, but the point of the check is hardly to induce a bluff from either player, and at the point where UTG goes all-in I can hardly consider that a bluff.

FoxwoodsFiend 03-20-2005 12:44 AM

Results
 
So I pretty much thought the same thing as all of you guys have said and after a long while decided to fold. He flipped over K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] In hindsight, Kx of diamonds is the only King I thought I could beat given that action but just never even entered my mind. I think it's a good fold because he doesn't put money in unless he's very confident, but when he later said he thought he had me that hand I realized you can never account for some players' complete lack of card sense

aggie 03-20-2005 12:56 AM

Re: Results
 
That's the thing...unless you REALLY know how a guy plays, i think you have to make this call....Now you'd seen him play very tight for i assume a few hours...I see players play super tight for extremely long periods of time and then they piss their money away on one hand....This happens all the time

Many players play super tight, but then they overplay big hands....I also see this all the time....So unless you know that the guy is tight AND SOLID i think you need to call getting 2-1...If the guy is a goose (and clearly this guy was) you need to call....If you're not sure, which i don't think you were, i think you should call.

All that said, you are going to be beat in this spot a high percentage of the time, but i don't think that it is 66% of the time...

Dr. Strangelove 03-20-2005 01:09 AM

Re: Results
 
What kane and fsuplayer said, regardless of the results. And you can change your read now. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

chuddo 03-20-2005 05:19 AM

Re: Results
 
see how lovely betting 250 on the river would have been now? about $1,100 or so lovely.

aggie 03-20-2005 06:03 AM

Re: Results
 
How this hand should have been played:
pre-flop - fine
flop - lead out pot sized bet
turn - fine
river - lead out (do not check fold!)

pete fabrizio 04-04-2005 09:34 AM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
[ QUOTE ]
5/10 live game at the casino morongo.
UTG is a supertight old player who has only pushed in twice, once with a set on the turn and the other time with a nut flush. I've seen him play K10 suited for a decent pot, but only with position and he doesn't even raise with QQ in MP preflop. Button is just a complete idiot-he's called my reraise for $200 preflop with A5 suited and puts in a small raise on the button every hand.
UTG has $1000, Button has $4000, I have $3300.
I'm dealt K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the big blind. UTG limps. Folded to the button who makes it 25. I call, UTG calls.
Flop comes down K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
I check, UTG bets 35, Button calls. I raise to $135. UTG and button call.
Turn comes K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] I bet out for $120, two callers.
River comes 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
At this point, I'm worried about what UTG could have so I check. I check, he immediately moves all-in for $720. Button folds. Do I call or fold in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

The only reason to check this river is if you intend to call. I hope you didn't fold, I'm pretty sure this is a "damn, that guy who I thought was tight all night pulled some stupid [censored]."

pete fabrizio 04-04-2005 09:35 AM

Re: Results
 
*sigh*

FoxwoodsFiend 04-04-2005 10:02 AM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
5/10 live game at the casino morongo.
UTG is a supertight old player who has only pushed in twice, once with a set on the turn and the other time with a nut flush. I've seen him play K10 suited for a decent pot, but only with position and he doesn't even raise with QQ in MP preflop. Button is just a complete idiot-he's called my reraise for $200 preflop with A5 suited and puts in a small raise on the button every hand.
UTG has $1000, Button has $4000, I have $3300.
I'm dealt K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the big blind. UTG limps. Folded to the button who makes it 25. I call, UTG calls.
Flop comes down K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
I check, UTG bets 35, Button calls. I raise to $135. UTG and button call.
Turn comes K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] I bet out for $120, two callers.
River comes 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
At this point, I'm worried about what UTG could have so I check. I check, he immediately moves all-in for $720. Button folds. Do I call or fold in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

The only reason to check this river is if you intend to call. I hope you didn't fold, I'm pretty sure this is a "damn, that guy who I thought was tight all night pulled some stupid [censored]."

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, I checked because that guy sticking in the pot made me doubt I was good. Everybody at the table was talking about how they were shocked he only had a weak king and they all assumed he was full. If it makes you feel better, I ended up taking his stack with a set versus a severe overplay of AA.

FoxwoodsFiend 04-04-2005 10:03 AM

Re: Results
 
[ QUOTE ]
*sigh*

[/ QUOTE ]

I try to only post hands that I think I played badly enough to elicit this response...they can't all be gems right? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

joshgill17 04-05-2005 02:35 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
I don't play these limits but I think you needed to bet about 250-300 on the river with intentions of folding to an all in. You will probably see K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]X [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] here but A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and 99 look like real possibilites.

xorbie 04-05-2005 03:38 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
It's tough to say what UTG has given his tiny flop bet and then just smooth calling the rest of the way. Seems like 99/44 is the most likely hand.

Also, I'm wondering why you check/raised the flop? Was this just for deception?

LuvDemNutz 04-05-2005 03:43 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
[ QUOTE ]
i would have bet 250 or so on the river into him, as he will just call with a weaker K if your hand is good.

he could have flopped a set and looked to jam the turn to out-price the diamond draw, but he managed to fill up and wanted the idiot button to come along and pay him off on the river.

2-1 on your call isn't enough here to make the crying call i dont think, as i expect your hand to be good a far less time than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

All of this sounds right to me.

FoxwoodsFiend 04-05-2005 04:31 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
[ QUOTE ]

Also, I'm wondering why you check/raised the flop? Was this just for deception?

[/ QUOTE ]

This has already been covered-thought I could push off the tight player and get it heads up against button, who I thought I was beating.

ggbman 04-05-2005 05:59 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
How tight could UTG be limping with K3? I know it's been said, but i think a blocking bet is key here on the river.

nokona13 04-05-2005 08:07 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
5/10 live game at the casino morongo.
UTG is a supertight old player who has only pushed in twice, once with a set on the turn and the other time with a nut flush. I've seen him play K10 suited for a decent pot, but only with position and he doesn't even raise with QQ in MP preflop. Button is just a complete idiot-he's called my reraise for $200 preflop with A5 suited and puts in a small raise on the button every hand.
UTG has $1000, Button has $4000, I have $3300.
I'm dealt K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the big blind. UTG limps. Folded to the button who makes it 25. I call, UTG calls.
Flop comes down K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
I check, UTG bets 35, Button calls. I raise to $135. UTG and button call.
Turn comes K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] I bet out for $120, two callers.
River comes 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
At this point, I'm worried about what UTG could have so I check. I check, he immediately moves all-in for $720. Button folds. Do I call or fold in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

The only reason to check this river is if you intend to call. I hope you didn't fold, I'm pretty sure this is a "damn, that guy who I thought was tight all night pulled some stupid [censored]."

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, I checked because that guy sticking in the pot made me doubt I was good. Everybody at the table was talking about how they were shocked he only had a weak king and they all assumed he was full. If it makes you feel better, I ended up taking his stack with a set versus a severe overplay of AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice... Isn't sweet when you get your money back from a monkey who only had it because of one of your own mistakes?

FoxwoodsFiend 04-05-2005 08:25 PM

Re: How much respect do I give this guy?
 
[ QUOTE ]
How tight could UTG be limping with K3? I know it's been said, but i think a blocking bet is key here on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Block bet, as in bet 200 and fold for ~400 more? Or block bet then call? The first option seems terrible and the second is odd because if he's got a raising hand he's got a calling hand so I might as well bet to make sure that a worse K doesn't check behind...I would appreciate if you attached a $ amount to the words "block bet".
As for the K3 limp not making him tight, needless to say everybody was shocked. The guy was a rock.


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