Re: The Crusades
 

"I think you ought perhaps to read some Orianna Fallaci "

The only genuine fascist you've managed to refer to so far.

Re: The Crusades
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nicky, Islam has always been a totalitarian system, and Mohammad and his armies spread it by the sword.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it hasn't - totalitarianism is largely a 20th century phenomena.

"A totalitarian state trys to control all aspects of its citizens lives. Some ancient Chinese rulers seem to have attempted this, but in the West, it is a distinctively modern form of government since it depends on huge government efforts to bring about. Classic examples of attempted totalitarian societies are France under the Committee of Public Safety in 1794, Nazi Germany, the Stalinist Soviet Union, Mao's China, and Kim's Korea. In such societies efforts were amde to bring all public groups under the ideological control of the state."

Totalitarianism

Islam does not seek total control over every part of people's lives, except perhaps in unique mdern extremist versions such as that of the Taliban (even they do not remotely compare to the degree of control under Hitler or Stalin) - it does not seek to control the economy for example beyond the odd tax (cue some libertarians denouncing all tactics as totalitarian, but never mind), it permits "opposition" to it in the form of other religions, it was formed in a time when the political party didn't exist; its texts contain no information on what type of political system should rule. And there is the key point; it is a religion, not a political philiosphy or system of government, except as used by distinctly modern Islamists for their own purposes, and cannot by definition be totalitarian.

I don't understand why the likes of you and BluffTHis have to use the tired old leftist tactic of denouncing everything of which you disapprove in terms of some prominent contemporary or near-contemproary phenonemena. Thus all violence you disaprove of is terrorism, and all systems of though you disapprove of are fascist (just like the Socialist WOrkers!). You can disapprove of these things if you want but using these terms renders them and the debate meaningless.

As for Islam being "spread by the sword", the various Islamic empires were spread by the sword, as are all empires including the ones they displaced and all the various Christian empires. Islam as a religion was largely not spread by the sword. Indeed it has reached places that no Muslim empire ever did eg south-east Asia.

Re: The Crusades
 

[ QUOTE ]
totalitarianism is largely a 20th century phenomena

[/ QUOTE ]

You have just proved you don't know dik about history and therefore it is likely the rest of your opinions are bunk as well. How many examples of representative democracy do you think there are between Athens and the founding of the U.S.? Here's 2: The Althing of Iceland and the English parliament (oligarchy until 20th century there). How many others?

Re: The Crusades
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
totalitarianism is largely a 20th century phenomena

[/ QUOTE ]

You have just proved you don't know dik about history and therefore it is likely the rest of your opinions are bunk as well. How many examples of representative democracy do you think there are between Athens and the founding of the U.S.? Here's 2: The Althing of Iceland and the English parliament (oligarchy until 20th century there). How many others?

[/ QUOTE ]

A lack of democracy is not remotely the same of totalitarianism. Totalitarianisn is an all-encompassing system that tries to regulate every aspect of life and is generally characterised by mass murder. The most prominent exampoles are Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia. It is not the same as dictatorship or a myriad of other political systems. But thanks for demonstrating your rudeness and ignorance in one shot.

Re: Where You Were, I Was
 

"THEY believe man's only rightful freedom is to worship Allah and to behave as prescribed in the Koran."

There's a bit of a contradiction there because the Qur'an gives people the freedom to worship other Gods, as has nearly ever Muslim-ruled state.

Re: The Crusades
 

"Next, if you get a Koran and read through and find all the imjunctions to Muslims, the instructions given to them, you will see a mountain of injunctions to fight the infidel, to subjugate the infidel, to force the world to conform to Allah's will."

Have you read teh Qur'an? I am reading it (haven't finished) and while their have been a very few verses about fighting (not about "subjugating the infidel") there certainly haven't been "a mountain" so far; the vast majority of it is about the unity of God, forgiveness, doing good deeds, the afterlife and Biblical stories. Your assertion that it contains numerous political injunctions that necessarily lead to "totalitarianism" is also wrong. Of its over 6,000 verses it contains about 200 "legal" verses, about punishments, inheritance and the like (it does not state whether or how these should be implemented politically); it contains zero advice on how governments should be run, people should be ruled etc.

Re: The Crusades
 

Yea, I'm sure the peasants and serfs of pre-modern times didn't really feel like their lives were regulated or that whether they lived or died was at the whim of the ruler or ruling class. And I am sure they felt that they would always receive fair and impartial justice.

Re: Where You Were, I Was
 

"the reason Islamic societies have through many centuries tended towards totalitarian rule, and today so clearly do"

There are no Muslim states today that could remotely be characterised as totalitarian. The only ones in recent history that arguably could have were Iraq (which was a secular, non-Islamic state), and Taliban Afghanistan.

Re: The Crusades
 

"The Koran advocates war and violence to convert unbelievers"

No, it doesn't.

Re: The Crusades
 

"Maybe there is a great deal of debate about those things amongst ignorant Westerners, but not amongst imams and mullahs."

Who exactly you mean by "imams and mullahs" I'm not quite sure (Imams in Sunni Islam are simply prayer leaders), but I can categorically assure you that there is an enormous amount of debate on these topics amongst contemporary Muslim scholars.

"In Islamic ideology there is no distinction between the sacred and the secular. Hence there is no distinction between secular government and religious rule--it is all the same, and it is all to follow the will of God. Therefore government under Islam has an absolute or totalitarian aspect that cannot ever be truly shaken loose."

This is completely wrong. There are Muslims who advocate this kind of vision but to say that it is an uncontested integral aspect of Islam is incorrect. THere is no advice in the Quran on forms of government, religious or otherwise, and the "Islam as state and religion"/din wa dawla formulation is a modern one. The early caliphs' religious roles were unclear, and very quickly the caliphs ceased to have any real political power, so it is clear that this was also not true of most of Islamic history.

Re: The Crusades
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yea, I'm sure the peasants and serfs of pre-modern times didn't really feel like their lives were regulated or that whether they lived or died was at the whim of the ruler or ruling class. And I am sure they felt that they would always receive fair and impartial justice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I seriously doubt they felt that a ruling ideology such as Nazism permeated their every action, transaction and thought. Pre-modern governments simply didn't have the power or technology to extend into every aspect of their subjects' lives even if they had wanted to. Look, if you want to argue that totalitarianism is simply any authoritarian non-democratic system be my guest, but that's not what it is commonly understood as. It really is quite sad that your mind is so narrow and inflexible that you only have space for one type of illegitimate violence in it (terrorism) and one type of non-perfect political system (totalitarianism). Thank God the world and most people's minds are more varied than yours.

Re: The Crusades
 

Yea nicky, it really pays to keep an open mind so that you can distinguish between different forms of violence and the nuances of differing forms of dictatorship. That way you don't discriminate against forms of violence and those dictatorships that you have sympathy with or are just too cowardly to confront.

How noble and sophisticated of you.

Re: The Crusades
 

[ QUOTE ]
"The Koran advocates war and violence to convert unbelievers"

[ QUOTE ]
No, it doesn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

"9.123 O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness"

"9.5 So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush,then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them;surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

But hey if they conquer you and you convert you get to live. What a deal!

Re: The Crusades
 

[ QUOTE ]
" (the) massacre of civilian populations was always an integral part of US warmaking strategy"

How fair or unfair is this?


[/ QUOTE ]

Slightly unfair, vaguely understandable.

Mack

Re: The Crusades
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yea nicky, it really pays to keep an open mind so that you can distinguish between different forms of violence and the nuances of differing forms of dictatorship. That way you don't discriminate against forms of violence and those dictatorships that you have sympathy with or are just too cowardly to confront.

How noble and sophisticated of you.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is not a question of not confronting or having sympathy with forms of violence or repressive violence. But l;umping them altogether is absurd; I'd much rather live under some tinpot dictatorship that leaves you alone if you mind your own business than Stalinist Russia for example. I'd rather live in Egypt now than in Cambodia under Pol Pot. And I see a distinction between shooting someone for money and blowing up a cafe for political motives, despite the fact that both are wrong. Lumping them all in together is ridiculous.

I'll come back to your Quranic excerpts tonight or tomorrow; but let me quickly say firstly that context matters, and secondly that noone, not even MMMMMM [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img], believes that Islam or the Qur'an demand that everyone convert to Islam or be killed as you suggest.

Re: The Crusades
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"I think you ought perhaps to read some Orianna Fallaci "

[/ QUOTE ]

The only genuine fascist you've managed to refer to so far.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that is true, Nicky, I'll have to read her to see why. The interviews of her which I've read have been quite good, though. However on the basis of your statement I will now withdraw the recommendation.

Read Robert Spencer, instead;-)

Re: The Crusades
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
totalitarianism is largely a 20th century phenomena

[/ QUOTE ]

You have just proved you don't know dik about history and therefore it is likely the rest of your opinions are bunk as well. How many examples of representative democracy do you think there are between Athens and the founding of the U.S.? Here's 2: The Althing of Iceland and the English parliament (oligarchy until 20th century there). How many others?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bluffthis, if you took some time to study Poli Sci you would find that totalitarianism is a very specific term refering to a very specific type of political state organisation, not just a word to bandied about to donate a lack of democracy or freedom.

The conditions for totalitarianism to be possible have not existed till the twentieth century.

Re: The Crusades
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Nicky, Islam has always been a totalitarian system, and Mohammad and his armies spread it by the sword.


[/ QUOTE ]


No, it hasn't - totalitarianism is largely a 20th century phenomena.


[/ QUOTE ]

Nicky, change the words to "totalitarian-like" or "fascistic" (instead of "fascist"). Quite simply, Mohammed and his armies killed or enslaved those who resisted their absolutist ideology and the rule of Islam; the luckier ones managed to avoid those fates and subsisted in a life of second-class legal status, forever consigned to having less rights and privileges than Muslims, and ever living under the threat of death should they not abide by their second-class status as dhimmis.

You may perhaps define "totalitarianism" and "fascism" as 20th century developments, technically speaking: but things of fairly similar nature were going on long before the 20th century.

Also, Nicky: the Taliban, and the Wahhabis, and the mullahs of Iran, and even bin-Laden and Zarqawi, generally are more correct in their interpretations of Islam, than are "moderate" Muslims. Don't believe it? Maybe reading the Koran you would change your mind.

Re: The Crusades
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll come back to your Quranic excerpts tonight or tomorrow; but let me quickly say firstly that context matters, and secondly that noone, not even MMMMMM , believes that Islam or the Qur'an demand that everyone convert to Islam or be killed as you suggest.


[/ QUOTE ]

Right, because the third choice for infidels (other than conversion of death), is to accept humiliating second-class legal status under Islam as dhimmis and to pay the (extortionate) special poll tax.

Re: The Crusades
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll come back to your Quranic excerpts tonight or tomorrow; but let me quickly say firstly that context matters


[/ QUOTE ]

Always trying to find a way out of the plain meaning of the words aren't you? And like MMMMMM posted above and I commented on, the standard is not how you interpret it, but how Moslems do and act on it.

Re: Where You Were, I Was
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"the reason Islamic societies have through many centuries tended towards totalitarian rule, and today so clearly do"

[/ QUOTE ]

There are no Muslim states today that could remotely be characterised as totalitarian. The only ones in recent history that arguably could have were Iraq (which was a secular, non-Islamic state), and Taliban Afghanistan.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nicky, I think you're picking bones over the exact definition of totalitarian. Call it "totalitarian-like", if you prefer. By the way, I'm curious: how do you NOT consider Saudi Arabia totalitarian? I think the only way to do that is to take an incredibly narrow view of the term: in Saudi Arabia, there is absolute rule, thought control, forced prayer 5 times a day, draconian laws and punishments, religious police roaming the streets...to me, that's "totalitarian." If it somehow misses your precise definition of the term, I suppose that's because I can't find a more apt word. Can you?

Re: The Crusades
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'll come back to your Quranic excerpts tonight or tomorrow; but let me quickly say firstly that context matters


[/ QUOTE ]



Always trying to find a way out of the plain meaning of the words aren't you? And like MMMMMM posted above and I commented on, the standard is not how you interpret it, but how Moslems do and act on it.


[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is, most Muslims are moderate enough to not really follow the Koran in its entirety (thankfully). However, the religious authorities of Islam generally take views that we would call "extreme." That's because the Koran itself contains prescriptions for thought and action which we would call "extreme."

Re: Where You Were, I Was
 

nicky is a master of denying the facts so that one doesn't have to face the implications of same and act on them. Same type of reasoning that led to the appeasement of Hitler by euro leaders prior to WWII which allowed him to become a critical threat.

Re: Where You Were, I Was
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"THEY believe man's only rightful freedom is to worship Allah and to behave as prescribed in the Koran."

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a bit of a contradiction there because the Qur'an gives people the freedom to worship other Gods, as has nearly ever Muslim-ruled state.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's a given or allowed freedom under Islamic law (with attached conditions and restrictions), but it's not considered really rightful, in their view. They believe that all infidels, including Jews and Christians, have turned away from Allah and are therefore doing wrong, and will pay a supreme penalty for their willful departure from Allah's will.

It is also questionable whether the restricted "freedom" you speak of applies to those such as Hindus who are not "people of the Book."

Re: The Crusades
 

I've read much of it, Nicky, though that was long ago; lately I've been reading the Sura which is probably most warlike (Sura 9).

Why don't you and I both read the rest of it, and return to this aspect of the discussion in a few months, with fresh and fuller perspectives?

Re: The Crusades
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Maybe there is a great deal of debate about those things amongst ignorant Westerners, but not amongst imams and mullahs."


[/ QUOTE ] Who exactly you mean by "imams and mullahs" I'm not quite sure (Imams in Sunni Islam are simply prayer leaders), but I can categorically assure you that there is an enormous amount of debate on these topics amongst contemporary Muslim scholars.


[/ QUOTE ]

Islamic religious leaders. Pure scholars (as in Western universities, who are not Muslim themselves, and are not involved in the leading of prayers and so forth, do not count. I'm talking of people who have lived and breathed Islam all their lives, and who now teach it and lead prayers. Of course there are far fewer Westerners so heavily immersed in either Christianity or Islam).

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"In Islamic ideology there is no distinction between the sacred and the secular. Hence there is no distinction between secular government and religious rule--it is all the same, and it is all to follow the will of God. Therefore government under Islam has an absolute or totalitarian aspect that cannot ever be truly shaken loose."

[/ QUOTE ]

This is completely wrong. There are Muslims who advocate this kind of vision but to say that it is an uncontested integral aspect of Islam is incorrect. THere is no advice in the Quran on forms of government, religious or otherwise, and the "Islam as state and religion"/din wa dawla formulation is a modern one. The early caliphs' religious roles were unclear, and very quickly the caliphs ceased to have any real political power, so it is clear that this was also not true of most of Islamic history

[/ QUOTE ]

If all aspects of life are to be religious and in accordance with Allah's will, how could the aspect of governance rightly be any different? The Muslims who advocate this vision are correct, and are generally the most steeped in Islamic tradition, the imams and mullahs; those who have lived and breathed Islam all their lives.

Re: The Crusades
 

"9.123 O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness"

"9.5 So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush,then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them;surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

[ QUOTE ]
But hey if they conquer you and you convert you get to live. What a deal!

[/ QUOTE ]

You could also possibly escape death by promising to never do anything to offend Islam or Muslims, paying an extortionate poll tax, and accepting a legal status that is secondary to Muslims in many important aspects.

Re: The Crusades
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bluffthis, if you took some time to study Poli Sci you would find that totalitarianism is a very specific term refering to a very specific type of political state organisation, not just a word to bandied about to donate a lack of democracy or freedom.

The conditions for totalitarianism to be possible have not existed till the twentieth century.

[/ QUOTE ]

If there's one thing that's very clear to me in this thread (and on this forum in general), it's that it becomes exceedingly easily to know who has spent some time in college (or higher) studying social sciences, and doing actual research (even if it was as limited to something like a 15 or 20 page paper for a college class) -- research that you would be held accountable for, on some level or another -- research that would require vigorous study, and a demonstration of what's quantifiable, what isn't, and how empirical evidence can shed light on what M correctly calls a never-ending game of conjecture; and (contrast that) with people who haven't received such training, who studied other subjects during their higher education (or didn't receive a higher education at all), and rely on rather strange generalizations and incoherent premises to make arguments that even children could deconstruct -- "take a look at these verses in the Koran, they will help to explain a millenium of Muslim behavior, both in positions of state authority and within Muslim society/interactions between Muslims and non-Muslims in the world at large".

I think one explanation is clearly a lack of formal training in authentic research and academic study in the field of the social sciences, although perhaps there are others.

Re: The Crusades
 

[ QUOTE ]
If there's one thing that's very clear to me in this thread (and on this forum in general), it's that it becomes exceedingly easily to know who has spent some time in college (or higher) studying social sciences, and doing actual research (even if it was as limited to something like a 15 or 20 page paper for a college class) -- research that you would be held accountable for, on some level or another -- research that would require vigorous study, and a demonstration of what's quantifiable, what isn't, and how empirical evidence can shed light on what M correctly calls a never-ending game of conjecture; and (contrast that) with people who haven't received such training, who studied other subjects during their higher education (or didn't receive a higher education at all), and rely on rather strange generalizations and incoherent premises to make arguments that even children could deconstruct -- "take a look at these verses in the Koran, they will help to explain a millenium of Muslim behavior, both in positions of state authority and within Muslim society/interactions between Muslims and non-Muslims in the world at large".

I think one explanation is clearly a lack of formal training in authentic research and academic study in the field of the social sciences, although perhaps there are others.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you would just shake some of that social studies nonsense you studied in college out of your head for one moment;-) -- and read some key verses in the Koran--AND combine that with what Mohammed did in real life, you would see what is the most likely explanation.

Mohammed himself followed the prescriptions for making war on infidels, as set forth in the Koran. He authored the Koran, too (or is it true that the archangel Gabriel delivered to Mohammed in a dream God's perfect word, and he merely transcribed it without error?)

Why you, DVaut1, try to view things through the more complex lens first, is baffling to me. Have you ever heard of the principle that the simplest solution or reason is also the most likely correct?

The Koran advocates making war on infidels and subjugating them. Mohammed made aggressive war on infidels, killing and subjugating them, numerous times. His later followers through centuries made aggressive war on infidels, killing and subjugating them, numerous times. What, then, is the simplest conclusion you might draw from all of this?

Re: The Crusades
 

All the crusades to virtually all the crusaders were about making a quick buck. The fact that the pope said they were doing good was just a bonus.

Re: The Crusades
 

Is in not fair to give it some context by comparing it to another religion, so we can see if religions have something in common.

Some nice quotes from the Bible :

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

[/ QUOTE ]



[ QUOTE ]
The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
"I have wiped out many nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers. Their cities are now deserted; their streets are in silent ruin. There are no survivors to even tell what happened. I thought, 'Surely they will have reverence for me now! Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won't need to strike again.' But no; however much I punish them, they continue their evil practices from dawn till dusk and dusk till dawn." So now the LORD says: "Be patient; the time is coming soon when I will stand up and accuse these evil nations. For it is my decision to gather together the kingdoms of the earth and pour out my fiercest anger and fury on them. All the earth will be devoured by the fire of my jealousy. "On that day I will purify the lips of all people, so that everyone will be able to worship the LORD together. My scattered people who live beyond the rivers of Ethiopia will come to present their offerings. (Zephaniah 3:6-10 NLT)

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
"You Ethiopians will also be slaughtered by my sword," says the LORD. And the LORD will strike the lands of the north with his fist. He will destroy Assyria and make its great capital, Nineveh, a desolate wasteland, parched like a desert. The city that once was so proud will become a pasture for sheep and cattle. All sorts of wild animals will settle there. Owls of many kinds will live among the ruins of its palaces, hooting from the gaping windows. Rubble will block all the doorways, and the cedar paneling will lie open to the wind and weather. This is the fate of that boisterous city, once so secure. "In all the world there is no city as great as I," it boasted. But now, look how it has become an utter ruin, a place where animals live! Everyone passing that way will laugh in derision or shake a defiant fist. (Zephaniah 2:12-15 NLT)

[/ QUOTE ]



[ QUOTE ]
Stand in silence in the presence of the Sovereign LORD, for the awesome day of the LORD's judgment has come. The LORD has prepared his people for a great slaughter and has chosen their executioners. "On that day of judgment," says the LORD, "I will punish the leaders and princes of Judah and all those following pagan customs.

[/ QUOTE ]



[ QUOTE ]
"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
You must destroy all the nations the LORD your God hands over to you. Show them no mercy and do not worship their gods. If you do, they will trap you. Perhaps you will think to yourselves, 'How can we ever conquer these nations that are so much more powerful than we are?' But don't be afraid of them! Just remember what the LORD your God did to Pharaoh and to all the land of Egypt. Remember the great terrors the LORD your God sent against them. You saw it all with your own eyes! And remember the miraculous signs and wonders, and the amazing power he used when he brought you out of Egypt. The LORD your God will use this same power against the people you fear. And then the LORD your God will send hornets to drive out the few survivors still hiding from you! "No, do not be afraid of those nations, for the LORD your God is among you, and he is a great and awesome God. The LORD your God will drive those nations out ahead of you little by little. You will not clear them away all at once, for if you did, the wild animals would multiply too quickly for you. But the LORD your God will hand them over to you. He will throw them into complete confusion until they are destroyed. He will put their kings in your power, and you will erase their names from the face of the earth. No one will be able to stand against you, and you will destroy them all. (Deuteronomy 7:16-24 NLT)

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

[/ QUOTE ]

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
[ QUOTE ]
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)



Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)



Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)



Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)



Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)



Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)



Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)



Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)



Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)



[/ QUOTE ]

hey Nicky
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've read much of it, Nicky, though that was long ago; lately I've been reading the Sura which is probably most warlike (Sura 9).

Why don't you and I both read the rest of it, and return to this aspect of the discussion in a few months, with fresh and fuller perspectives?


[/ QUOTE ]

Nicky, I must apologize here for having written a misleading statement.

I should have written, "I've read various parts of it, and some of that was long ago; and I've read much about it. Altogether I've assimiliated enough information to feel I understand the gist of it. Lately, I've been looking over Sura 9, again."

By the way, that about describes my reading of the Bible, too, though I've read more of Christianity than of Islam. And I do feel confident that I understand the gist of both religions.

Anyway, if we can find the time, Nicky, it might be worthwhile to read the rest of it over the next few months and return to this aspect of the discussion both of us more specifically knowledgeable.

Re: The Crusades
 

Hi OnceAndFutureKing,

Quoting the Bible is perfectly acceptable, and you have a point. However please note that you are quoting the Old Testament; you are not quoting the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament. Hence you are more essentially quoting from Judaism than from Christianity.

Re: The Crusades
 

I didnt say whay religion I was quoting, I just said lets look at other ones so we can put Islam in context.

Is there a passage in the Koran more warlike than this quote from the old testament?

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Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

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Re: The Crusades
 

The difference I see in references/comparisons of violence described in the Koran and the Bible, is that today's Christian does not practice acts of violence in the name of his/her faith. Occasional rants/outbursts from the occasional TV-evangelist aside, the message of the Bible is love, peace, acceptance, understanding of everyone.

I doubt we'll ever hear of fundamentalist Imams calling for ecumenical gatherings. I've yet to hear of a call for world-wide unity and agreement among the Imams to decide what the Koran teaches. I do hear of Imams deciding to form their personal armies and encouraging their followers to kill and maim. I doubt even Falwell or Robertson will go that far.

Re: The Crusades
 

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I didnt say whay religion I was quoting, I just said lets look at other ones so we can put Islam in context.

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Is there a passage in the Koran more warlike than this quote from the old testament?

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Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

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That's an evil passage indeed, one of the worst I have ever read in religious texts; and I am not defending the Old Testament. I think the old laws and ideologies were barbaric. However, you will find nothing like that in the New Testament teachings of Jesus.

Such barbarism is one good reason for Jesus to have established an entirely new platform for believers.

Re: The Crusades
 

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Such barbarism is one good reason for Jesus to have established an entirely new platform for believers.


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This is untrue. Jesus never invalidates the Old Testament. He just provided the means by which the passages that have been sighted are no longer necessary. Jesus provided a way to satify God's just punishment for sins.

-Gryph

Re: The Crusades
 

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Hi OnceAndFutureKing,

Quoting the Bible is perfectly acceptable, and you have a point. However please note that you are quoting the Old Testament; you are not quoting the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament. Hence you are more essentially quoting from Judaism than from Christianity.

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1) I know many Christians who hold the Old Testament in high esteem, and aren't so cavalier in turning it aside as you are.

2) To hold to your standard, we should also be in the process of 'fighting back against Jews, and driving them back from whence they came' or whatever such nonsense you believe we ought to be currently doing to Muslims because their religion is inherently violent and that they present a danger to the peace-loving religions of the world.

See anything justifiable about that? I don't.

Re: The Crusades
 

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The difference I see in references/comparisons of violence described in the Koran and the Bible, is that today's Christian does not practice acts of violence in the name of his/her faith.

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The Old Testament laws do not properly apply to Christians anyway; only the teachings and instructions given by Jesus count now. True Christians should not practice violence against humans in the name of the faith. The instructions of Jesus are also quite clear about not resisting evil, and about turning the other cheek. Many "Christians" however do not understand this, and that goes for some clergy as well.

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Occasional rants/outbursts from the occasional TV-evangelist aside, the message of the Bible is love, peace, acceptance, understanding of everyone.

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Those who espouse violence in the name of Christianity do so out of ignorance, and have effectively ignored or turned the teachings of Jesus Christ upside down. That goes for the Pope who started the Crusades, too! Just because I think the First Crusade was a good idea, does NOT mean I think it was in keeping with true Christian belief.

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I doubt we'll ever hear of fundamentalist Imams calling for ecumenical gatherings. I've yet to hear of a call for world-wide unity and agreement among the Imams to decide what the Koran teaches. I do hear of Imams deciding to form their personal armies and encouraging their followers to kill and maim. I doubt even Falwell or Robertson will go that far.

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You doubt well.

Re: The Crusades
 

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The difference I see in references/comparisons of violence described in the Koran and the Bible, is that today's Christian does not practice acts of violence in the name of his/her faith. Occasional rants/outbursts from the occasional TV-evangelist aside, the message of the Bible is love, peace, acceptance, understanding of everyone.

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I'm not quite so sure that this is the case. In fact, I hope BLUFFthis or Peter666 comes to defend the notion that, in fact, Christianity is not about the love, peace, acceptance, and understanding of everyone. Maybe M can elaborate.

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I doubt we'll ever hear of fundamentalist Imams calling for ecumenical gatherings. I've yet to hear of a call for world-wide unity and agreement among the Imams to decide what the Koran teaches.

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Do fundamentalist Christians try such things? Of course fundamentalist practitioners (of any religion) will likely be unwilling to call for ecumenical gatherings -- that's part of what makes them fundamentalist (although I'm willing to concede that we might have varied definitions and conceptions of what fundamentlism is).

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I do hear of Imams deciding to form their personal armies and encouraging their followers to kill and maim. I doubt even Falwell or Robertson will go that far.

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You will find (on many dark corners of the internet, and elsewhere) Christians calling for such things (Google 'Army of God' for a disgusting example). Thankfully, such people are relegated to the shadows of American society, and rightfully so. Certainly, similar-type people of the Islamic faith have found themselves in positions of power across the Middle East and elsewhere; and yet the reasons for this are many and varied, and can't be easily explained away as due to 'the inherent nature of Islam' (and many would rightfully claim, IMO, that the United States over-arching Cold War philosophy of a foreign policy dominated by realpolitik at any cost had an effect, to one degree or another...but I would certainly argue that the problem is deeper than that, and has a long and complicated history, to European colonialism and beyond).