Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

full table 200/400. I'm up and nothing significant has happened. She's read the thread where I 3 bet her on the turn with that KJ and we've discussed the hand a couple times.

Fish limps in the CO. He's the loose passive semi-older rich businessman in for a 'fun time'.

I complete JTd in the sb, terri in the bb checks.

Flop T53 with a diamond. I bet, terri calls, fish folds.

Turn J non diamond. I bet, terri raises, I insta 3 bet, she quickly 4 bets...I?

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

Ugh, unless I'm missing something, you call and then you check-call the river. I'm curious if you considered checkraising the turn or did you go the bet-3-bet route just bc she's aggro.

Jeff

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

I'm calling down, 53, 33 and 55 are most likly hands for her . theres no way I'm folding top 2 here.

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

I would 5 bet this. Two raggedy pair way more likely than a set.

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

I think she's raising 55/JJ/TT preflop 3-way with fish. 33 I'm not so sure. Based on your KJ hand she knows that you will 3-bet somewhat lightly on the turn, which means she might be capping a little lighter than a normal good player. I think calling down is the play, but calling the turn and checkraising the river might be optimal if you can fold to a river 3-bet. Can you? I couldn't. Therefore, I'm calling down and expecting to win this a good majority of the time.

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

she slowplayed a small pair? with position? (33 onlyreal set out htere)

you ahve top two and its disguised. reraise.

Barron

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

I would call and lead the river. I am definitely not folding your hand at any point and I dont think you are winning enough if 3 more big bets go in.

1-2 more BBs seems comfortable and appropriate.

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

I would assume you are pretty sure you have the best hand, are you trying to figure out how to get that extra bet? You think she folds 53 or 10-3 if u 5 bet? Even if she would she has odds to draw to the 4 outer with 53 after u 5 bet. I would 5 bet.

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

You could 5 bet here, but I would just call it down. It's close. A set is a very likely hand at this point. If you think she's messing with you, then 5 bet. I'd move seats, too.

FWIW, for those saying that "there's no way she wouldn't raise 33 or 55 preflop" I think you're on crack. There's no way she would raise those hands.

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

Why is top two disguised? JT is a hand people play the way he did. You think you're playing with kids here?

I really don't understand why people want to give top players all of this action.

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

Call.

All these bets and raise form a dialogue and her 4th bet certainly shouts out 33 or 55 more than J5 or J3 (which BTW are hands with which she may have raised you on the flop with and she didn't here which further indiactes a set).

Ya, you might look a little silly if you call and the river goes check check but that's the power of position. If you really wanted to, you could call the turn and then betcall the river. That's still 6 bets turn and river combined.

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

I think BK has thebest hand here close to 50% of the time.

Bottom line is that I most certainly do not want to put in 7 BB on the two streets, nor do I ever want to fold. If BK 5 bets, he can be put in the position to do one of the two options above. If BK calls and leads, only 6 bets can go in max, and he definitely gets 6.

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

[ QUOTE ]
All these bets and raise form a dialogue and her 4th bet certainly shouts out 33 or 55 more than J5 or J3 (which BTW are hands with which she may have raised you on the flop with and she didn't here which further indiactes a set).


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think she would raise two pair here. The pot is small, and she has no reason to want to drive the fish and and get it HU with BK.

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

[ QUOTE ]
You could 5 bet here, but I would just call it down. It's close. A set is a very likely hand at this point. If you think she's messing with you, then 5 bet. I'd move seats, too.

FWIW, for those saying that "there's no way she wouldn't raise 33 or 55 preflop" I think you're on crack. There's no way she would raise those hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

in my initial responses i missed the part about the gambler limping in the CO and thought she had position and BK just completed. thats why i thought a) top two is disguised (bk normally JTs is a raise from bk folded to the sb) and b) terri would raise those pairs preflop.

given the other player in the pot its way way closer and probably indeed leaning towards a call...but you really have to consider that insta 3bet w/ KJno spade on J83Xsssx (or whatever) board on the turn that they both know they both know. as a result, i think a worse two plair hand is definately possible putting in that 4th bet. the problem is if you are 6 bet it is so amazingly likely you are beat its not funny.

without any previous hand discussion/reads definately a call...but given the discussion bka nd terri have had id still lean a bit towards a raise b/c at that point, even bottom set gets a bit worried and isn't likely to 6bet.

the questions i have are then does she ever fold after putting in 5 bets? (assuming no) and after putting in 5 bets, getting called on the river isn't the greatest thing in the world so an inconsistent check may be worth it...which then kinda leans toward a turn call.

the fact they talk makes this hand very close imo.

Barron

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

No, you misunderstood. Although it could be my writing that is the culprit. I am talking about J5 and J3 which would give Terri two pairs on the turn. But I am saying that with just a 5 or a 3, she might have raised <u>on the flop</u> instead of calling and letting the third guy stay.

Reading the two streets in conjunction, I am saying that it is more likely that Terri's turn raise and 4 bet represents a set as opposed to J5 or J3. Of course, it could represent other hands too but as between a set and two pairs, a set is more likely.

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

Just to clarify, do you think that it is more likely for her to take this line when she has a set than when she has two pair? Or do you also mean that, even taking into account the fact that there are a lot more combinations of two pair than sets, you still think it is more likely that she has a set?

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just to clarify, do you think that it is more likely for her to take this line when she has a set than when she has two pair? Or do you also mean that, even taking into account the fact that there are a lot more combinations of two pair than sets, you still think it is more likely that she has a set?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe it is that skp believes terri would raise most 1pair hands to protect them on the flop, so the only 2pair holdings she could have were made on the flop, not helped by the J. Additionally, bottom 2 may not be as eager to put non-stop bets in on the turn. We are left with T5, T3, and 53 as 2pair possibilities, and 55 and 33 as set possibilities. Also, 53 and to a lesser extent T3 may not be so eager to keep raising knowing that a higher 2pair is possible from bk, while a set will continue to hammer away.

Surf

edit: also the 2pair hands that hold a T become less statistically likely b/c 2 tens are accounted for already.

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

Surfbullet basically clarified what I was trying to say.

I can't seem to express my thoughts clearly today both on the forum and in the crap that I have been dictating at the office all day.

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

against her id 5-bet this for sure.

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

I think you should 5 bet it, although it's tempting to just call and donk the river to see if she wants to pop you like she did in the KJ hand. That would be sweet, because she'd have to at least call your re-raise thinking your both playing off that hand.

Hey, if you lose to set, oh well... Sometimes it doesn't go your way.

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

If he calls and leads (not a terrible play), shouldn't he 3-bet the river given what took place in the KJ hand?

I know what you mean about gaining and losing what a hand seems worth. But because of the KJ hand, BK is in an excellent position to make a little extra, don't you think?

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

this is an easy 5 bet on the turn and call down from there. you just give up too much by not 5 betting here.

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know what you mean about gaining and losing what a hand seems worth. But because of the KJ hand, BK is in an excellent position to make a little extra, don't you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

She knows that BK had KJ that hand so that should help BK get a little extra with top 2.

BK knows she knows BK had KJ that hand so that also should help BK push harder here with top 2 and make a little extra.

BUT, she knows BK knows she knows he had KJ that hand so when BK 3-bets this hand she should assume he's not getting out of line again.

AND, BK knows she knows BK knows she knows he had KJ that hand and BK knows she should assume he's not getting over aggressive with top pair again so BK needs to play a little more carefully here.

I'm not sure where top 2 fits into all of this but I think its close either way between calling and raising.

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

[ QUOTE ]
She knows that BK had KJ that hand so that should help BK get a little extra with top 2.

BK knows she knows BK had KJ that hand so that also should help BK push harder here with top 2 and make a little extra.

BUT, she knows BK knows she knows he had KJ that hand so when BK 3-bets this hand she should assume he's not getting out of line again.

AND, BK knows she knows BK knows she knows he had KJ that hand and BK knows she should assume he's not getting over aggressive with top pair again so BK needs to play a little more carefully here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't she know all of this, though?

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
She knows that BK had KJ that hand so that should help BK get a little extra with top 2.

BK knows she knows BK had KJ that hand so that also should help BK push harder here with top 2 and make a little extra.

BUT, she knows BK knows she knows he had KJ that hand so when BK 3-bets this hand she should assume he's not getting out of line again.

AND, BK knows she knows BK knows she knows he had KJ that hand and BK knows she should assume he's not getting over aggressive with top pair again so BK needs to play a little more carefully here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't she know all of this, though?

[/ QUOTE ]
doesn't he know she knows all of this, though? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he calls and leads (not a terrible play), shouldn't he 3-bet the river given what took place in the KJ hand?

I know what you mean about gaining and losing what a hand seems worth. But because of the KJ hand, BK is in an excellent position to make a little extra, don't you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hadnt read the KJ hand prior to posting in this one (Was away all weekend and catching up on posts today). Given that hand I do not dislike 5-betting as much as BK is ahead more than I thought. I would really have to be in the game to know if a river bet/3-bet was not psychotic. Certainly would be pretty sweet though :-) That said, seems a little 'over tricky', and putting 4 bets in on both big streets here would make me feel pretty dumb (especially against a non-lagtard)

Wrong Hand
 

Sorry. I was mainly thinking of the other hand where BK had 44, donked the river, and wound up paying off 3rd pair or something after his opponent raised (I think this was the same player... too lazy to look it up now).

The bottom line is that I feel the image that BK has thus far developed (for better or worse), with this particular player deserves to gain him a little extra with a decent hand.

Re: Wrong Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry. I was mainly thinking of the other hand where BK had 44, donked the river, and wound up paying off 3rd pair or something after his opponent raised (I think this was the same player... too lazy to look it up now).


[/ QUOTE ] Nah, it was this one.

[ QUOTE ]
Folded to me in the BB with KJ and I 3 bet. This is the 2nd time I've put a raise in out of the blinds and the last time I had kings and showed it down.

She calls.

Flop J83

I bet, she raises, I call.

Turn 5 I bet, she raises, I insta 3 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

[ QUOTE ]
full table 200/400. I'm up and nothing significant has happened. She's read the thread where I 3 bet her on the turn with that KJ and we've discussed the hand a couple times.

Fish limps in the CO. He's the loose passive semi-older rich businessman in for a 'fun time'.

I complete JTd in the sb, terri in the bb checks.

Flop T53 with a diamond. I bet, terri calls, fish folds.

Turn J non diamond. I bet, terri raises, I insta 3 bet, she quickly 4 bets...I?

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on the results of the K-J hand and the fact that she knows what you had... and knows that you know from your conversations: I five bet and call down from there is in order. Unless of course you improve on river and then it is all out war.

I think she could easily be overplaying a worse 2 pair here based off your overaggressive action that you gave in the K-J hand.

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

if she's not the LAG type to 4-bet for a "free" showdown (doesn't sound like she is), why not call and check-raise the river?

you win the same when you're ahead, and if you're lucky she might go "huh?" and let you off cheaper when you're behind. it'll help keep her on her toes too.

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

Thanks for clarifying.

55 or 33 no preflop raise
 

This was my hand. It is not totally out of the question for me to raise with 55 or 33 here. 99.5% of the time I check my big blind here. The limper was a very bad player that never let go of anything, which makes the raise 100%, I will not raise.

This puts me on a set or two pair....does anyone really want to find out if you have top two. A re-raise will only make me fold the non-winning hand and call with the best.
Call down seems to be the only choice.

Regards,
Terri

Re: 55 or 33 no preflop raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
This was my hand. It is not totally out of the question for me to raise with 55 or 33 here. 99.5% of the time I check my big blind here. The limper was a very bad player that never let go of anything, which makes the raise 100%, I will not raise.

This puts me on a set or two pair....does anyone really want to find out if you have top two. A re-raise will only make me fold the non-winning hand and call with the best.
Call down seems to be the only choice.

Regards,
Terri

[/ QUOTE ]

the discussions you had w/ bk about his previous holdings re: agression on turn dont change anything in the dynamics here?

ive said a call down vs. raise is close and id lean towards 5, but that was based on an apparantly faulty assumption.

thoughts?

Barron

Re: 55 or 33 no preflop raise
 

I play day by day. Mood of the table and opponents. I spoke to BK and we were friendly. I am not saying I would not misrepesent my hand, however, very unlikely now. I did believe I had the best hand.

I told him my thoughts on the hand the previous day. Almost all the time I would have him there. I knew he knew I knew he had a hand but, I knew it wasn't that strong and I tried to get him off the hand. I folded to the 3 bet that day (KJ hand).

Terri

Re: Another 200/400 bellagio hand vs terri
 

Agree. A set is a real possibility. I'll donk a call on the river.