Ordering wine in restaurants
 

I just turned 21, and it occurred to me that if I'm ever at a decent restaurant, it's probably normal to get wine with dinner. As I currently know absolutely nothing about wine, other than that Pinot Noir is apparently the end-all of all wines, how do I go about picking a good one?

I'm not quite as concerned with picking something whose taste will blow my mind as I am the social aspect...i.e. if I'm with a date, is it normal to confer with her and choose a bottle to share? Or for us each to get a glass of whatever the hell we feel like? Passing knowledge of wine in general that would keep me from looking like a retard would help as well.

Re: Ordering wine in restaurants
 

As I currently know absolutely nothing about wine, other than that Pinot Noir is apparently the end-all of all wines

ROFLMAO, where'd you hear that??? Let me guess, you saw the movie "Sideways."

Seriously, Pinot is good, and some are great, but there is no such thing as "the best" wine. Like anything else, it's taste, and what you want the wine to do. (what food it accompanies, etc.)

There are some foods with which even the best Pinot Noir would be a terrible choice. Like poker advice, wine advice needs to be applied to specific circumstances.

Although as a rule of thumb, any wine that either comes in a box or can be opened without a corkscrew should be considered off limits(hint: to sound like a real wine geek, call a corkscrew a "wine key")

Re: Ordering wine in restaurants
 

Get the second cheapest bottle of white.

Re: Ordering wine in restaurants
 

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Get the second cheapest bottle of white.

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This has been the standard play for so long I think restaurants inflate the price of the second cheapest bottle even more than usual. I'm going third cheapest these days.

Re: Ordering wine in restaurants
 

If you're at a decent restaurant, your waiter should be able to suggest a wine that will be a basic compliment to your meal. Do a little web research to learn the absolute basics (white with seafood, red with steak, riesling with dessert, etc) so you can tell if your server is an absolute idiot.

If you aren't at a nice enough place for the waiters to have wine knowledge, do more extensive research. Knowing general rules of thumb for pairings should be fine unless you want to become an expert, in which case you're better off taking a class than asking OOT.

Re: Ordering wine in restaurants
 

Find a good byob place so you can bring a decent wine with you for cheap.

Re: Ordering wine in restaurants
 

Asking your date is a nice touch but what makes you think she knows more then you. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Ask her if she likes red or white , though not all wines go with all meals. as a rule of thumb red goes with "red things" (IE Marinara/Meat Sauce, Steak, Lamb) and whites with ( Garlic/Creame sauces,Chiken, fish or Pork). Though its not a hard and fast rule

I would shy away from a Cab. until you try it (IE get a glass before you buy a bottle) there delicious but you may not like it. You may get alot of people telling you to get one.

2 Good "dinner" wines are Merlot (for red) and Pinot Grigio (for white) both are light and dry easily drinkable.

a good "girlie" wine is White Zinfandel , thats the "pink" or blush wine alot of the ladies enjoy, its sweet though not usually good for dinner, just for drinking.

Also I wouldnt go "Nuts" with trying to impress her with the best bottle of wine, chances are niether of you will know the diffrences.

Getting into wine is like getting into scotch the more you start drinking it the more you want to try others. Keep going until you find a style you like then you can start drilling into the brands/years etc etc.

Re: Ordering wine in restaurants
 

Here's a little trick that may help in a pinch. It's by no means scientific or an absolute, but it's a good starting point if you've had little experience with wine, or if you are choosing a wine for other people, and aren't sure what to get based on meal pairing.

How you/another person likes their coffee,etc usually correlates with what kind of wines you/they may like. So from boldest to lightest:

Black coffee/ unsweetened coffee: Cab or Red Zinfidel
Regular coffee (ie cream+sugar): Merlot or syrah
Light coffee(light or real sweet) or a dark tea drinker: Pinot Noir
Lighter teas or tea with sugar: Charddoney
Tea with cream+sugar: Pinot Grigiot,

This is a real loose guideline, but will help in a pinch. Obviously there's a ton of variables. Some Chards can be bolder that a pinot noir, etc, but no need to worry about it now. Get out there and try a bunch of different wines and see what you like. Don't fret too much over wine/food pairing, as it is a personal thing. You should choose a wine because you like it, not because it's "supposed" to go with something. For example, I love bold cabs, so I generally drink it with just about any food. But in general, a heartier meal pairs better with bolder wine. ie: red meats with bigger wine, chicken/seafood with lighter wines.

Hope it helps.

Re: Ordering wine in restaurants
 

"Although as a rule of thumb, any wine that either comes in a box or can be opened without a corkscrew should be considered off limits(hint: to sound like a real wine geek, call a corkscrew a "wine key")"


I don't think this is a rule anymore. More good wine is bottled with stelvin closures all the time. And recently I decided to try one of the new boxed wines because the convenience of the preservation made it good for when you want one glass of mediocre wine. It isn't bad. Also, more wines are going to be put in other packages. Cheaper, easier, and in many cases superior for inexpensive wines. More good wines are lost to bad corks than most want to think about, and cork is getting more expensive.

Re: Ordering wine in restaurants
 

I like my coffee black and my wine red. Chianti with meat.

Re: Ordering wine in restaurants
 

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Black coffee/ unsweetened coffee: Cab or Red Zinfidel
Regular coffee (ie cream+sugar): Merlot or syrah
Light coffee(light or real sweet) or a dark tea drinker: Pinot Noir
Lighter teas or tea with sugar: Charddoney
Tea with cream+sugar: Pinot Grigiot,


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THis is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen.

OP,

Good Reds:
-Merlot (Good, all around red wine, goes well with most foods)
-Shiraz (Lighter, and nice with most foods)
-Cabernet Sauvignon (Some love it, some hate it)

White
-Pino Grigio
-Chardonnay (Lighter)

If you're at a resturant where the waiters wear tux's, they you can rely on their advice.

Wine and dinner
 

Actually, it's not "normal" to order wine with dinner. In fact, I'm sure the majority of diners do not order wine with their meals. (Having been wait staff, I can tell you most people know nothing about wine and most don't order it except at very high end restaurants).

If you're out on a date and you're interested in ordering a bottle (that is, you plan to drink 2-3 glasses) then ask your date if there is anything on the wine menu that piques her interest because you think you'll order a bottle. Make it sound casual like that so she doesn't feel obligated to choose a wine.
If she can't or doesn't want to choose anything then go for it yourself or ask your server.

Notes:
If she makes any mention of alcoholism or she gives off bad vibes when you discuss drinking, by no means order a bottle and recondiser a glass.

If she is underage, forget it. Order a glass for yourself or just stick to soda/ ice tea. No need to make an awkward situation or get anyone fined.

If you're serious about a girl, cook dinner for her yourself and choose a great wine to compliment it. Bonus points = call her to ask if she's allergic to anything and to ask what wine she likes. (But don't get weird and stalkerish about it - ONE phone call only. Not text messages about it, no IMs...)

If a restaurant offers carafs, this is your new favorite restaurant.

Re: Ordering wine in restaurants
 

Read a book like Wine For Dummies. Then go out and try a bunch of different wines.

As for the date advice, there's lots of pussy masters on this forum that can answer all your woman questions. That being said, if it's the first date you might want to take the initiative and pretend like you know what you're doing with the wine list. Try to find out if your date is much of a wine drinker. If she says no or she only drinks white wine, then order a pinot noir. Otherwise get whatever you want. If you really want to look cool, look to see if a particular wine is served by the glass. If it is, you can ask for a taste before ordering a bottle.

Re: Wine and dinner
 

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If a restaurant offers carafs, this is your new favorite restaurant.

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I recently was in Calgary for business and ate at alot of nice places that used these. I have absolutely no idea what purpose they serve. Can someone explain to me why they are used and why this is better than normal?

Re: Wine and dinner
 

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Actually, it's not "normal" to order wine with dinner. In fact, I'm sure the majority of diners do not order wine with their meals. (Having been wait staff, I can tell you most people know nothing about wine and most don't order it except at very high end restaurants).


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I think this may be a regional thing. I've rarely been to a nice dinner where a bottle of wine has not been ordered.

Re: Wine and dinner
 

Otis has a greater agenda here. His/her angle is to drastically reduce the amount of sex and drinking that goes on in this life.

Re: Wine and dinner
 

it also serves as a decantar and usually cost a little less

Re: Wine and dinner
 

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I can tell you most people know nothing about wine and most don't order it except at very high end restaurants).


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But when we do, we order *lots* of it!

Re: Wine and dinner
 

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I think this may be a regional thing. I've rarely been to a nice dinner where a bottle of wine has not been ordered.

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It's also cultural, Italian/French etc etc

Re: Wine and dinner
 

There is so much bad advice (and good) in here that someone should try to sort it out. I volunteer.

First off, congrats on turning 21 and wanting to learn something about the subject. You are ahead of 90% of the other 21 year-olds. Let's stick with ordering wine in a restaurant, anything else is too complex to start.

1. Most people don't know crap about wine. I know enough to know I don't know much, and I know quite a bit. Know this, name and price tell you little. If you've seen an advertisement, odds are it's bad. (Yellow Tail is a exception, but at $5 a bottle, you're getting value, not great wine.)

2. If you are in a chain restaurant, odds are the wine is not worth ordering. Higher end, it might be worth a shot, say something like Carrabba's (even they're questionable), Ruth's Chris, better local chains. Better to stick with the best draft microbrew. Less chance of getting something undrinkable. If you want wine with dinner, find a place that works on combining the two, generally a local place. They don't have to be too expensive, just aware of what's required. Ask around or check reviews.

3. Never order wine before ordering food. They need to match, no one can order wine properly without knowing what they're going to eat. (The exception will be if you know you're ordering steak. If you order steak in a restaurant regularly, you are too boring for words. NYC residents are exempt, since they aren't allowed to grill at home.)

4. If you're in a place you dare order wine, talk to the waiter. If he/she has no idea, don't order the stuff. If they do know what they're talking about, they should know what will match what you're ordering. Good chefs will have matched the wine with that night's selection and it should be available by the glass. That's right, by the glass. It's rare that you and your date will order something that will be best complimented by the same wine. Order a glass that will go best with each entree. And use the expertise of the waitstaff if they have any.

5. If a wine flight, generally 3 similar half glasses, that matches your entree is available, take it. Great way to learn about how different wines interact with the same food.

6. Allow red wine to breathe a little before tasting. Taste any wine to make sure you'll like it. Send it back if it's something you can't stand. On glass orders, this is really easy and they're generally accomdating. Better yet, ask for a taste before having them pour a glass. You'll have to guess a bit at how the red will turn out, but with experience you'll know what to look for.

That's it. Nothing about this goes with that, this is a good wine or this isn't. (Other than white zin or white merlot, which is almost NEVER good.) Be prepared to try different things, some which you'll like, some you won't. Just try it. Make mental notes of what works and what doesn't, what you like. Also, look for a class at a local wine store and learn more. After 20 or 30 years, you'll be amazed at how little you still know, but will have learned and enjoyed a lot.

Re: Wine and dinner
 

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Taste any wine to make sure you'll like it. Send it back if it's something you can't stand.

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This is absurd. Tasting wine is to check if the wine is corked, not whether you made a good choice.

Re: Wine and dinner
 

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Taste any wine to make sure you'll like it. Send it back if it's something you can't stand.

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This is absurd.

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Agreed.

If you're not sure what to get, Pinot Noir (red) and Reisling (white) are both versatile wines that can go with most food. They may not always be the best choice, but they usually will not clash with your meal.

The most popular reds (Cabernet, Bordeaux) and whites (Chardonnay) are often the wrong choice - they overpower many dishes.

Re: Wine and dinner
 

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There is so much bad advice (and good) in here that someone should try to sort it out. I volunteer.


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Actually your advice is terrible.

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2. If you are in a chain restaurant, odds are the wine is not worth ordering. Higher end, it might be worth a shot


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This is wrong, especially for those just getting into wine.

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Less chance of getting something undrinkable.


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Very rarely will one get something that could be described so strongly and most often it will be due to a bad bottle and should be sent back.

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3. Never order wine before ordering food. They need to match, no one can order wine properly without knowing what they're going to eat.


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This is a huge exagerration. Yes wine's can and should be paired to foods but they do not have to be. For a beginner this is totally unnecessary beyond very basic red with beef type matchings.

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(The exception will be if you know you're ordering steak. If you order steak in a restaurant regularly, you are too boring for words.


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Makes no sense.

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4. If you're in a place you dare order wine


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Dare???? It's not [censored] russian roulette it's a bottle of damn wine. What is so [censored] daring?

Just terrible advice throughout.

Re: Wine and dinner
 

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This is absurd. Tasting wine is to check if the wine is corked, not whether you made a good choice.

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While this is completely true, it's also worth pointing out that if you order a bottle that isn't spoiled but turns out to be not to your liking--too sweet, too dry, whatever--any halfway decent restaurant will allow you to change your selection.

Post of the Month
 

Excellent.

Who the f*ck are you, the Playboy Advisor ?

Re: Wine and dinner
 

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NYC residents are exempt, since they aren't allowed to grill at home.)

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Whaaa?

Re: Ordering wine in restaurants
 

Educating yourself about fine wines just means that you'll learn to dislike that perfectly good Franzia and have to spend $25 for a bottle.

If you want to impress someone at a restaurant, pick red or white depending on what you're eating, and then choose based on price. Generally, higher-priced = more impressive, though your mileage may vary. If the woman you're with knows wine, let her pick.

Re: Wine and dinner
 

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NYC residents are exempt, since they aren't allowed to grill at home.)

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Whaaa?

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Yeah I was curious about this too.

Anybody have an opinion of these? I don't drink much wine but I tried this and enjoyed it, the price is cheap as well. If I liked this, what other wines would you recommend me?

http://www.thelittlepenguin.com/wine...raz_bottle.jpg

Re: Wine and dinner
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is so much bad advice (and good) in here that someone should try to sort it out. I volunteer.


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Actually your advice is terrible.

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2. If you are in a chain restaurant, odds are the wine is not worth ordering. Higher end, it might be worth a shot


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This is wrong, especially for those just getting into wine.

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Less chance of getting something undrinkable.


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Very rarely will one get something that could be described so strongly and most often it will be due to a bad bottle and should be sent back.

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3. Never order wine before ordering food. They need to match, no one can order wine properly without knowing what they're going to eat.


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This is a huge exagerration. Yes wine's can and should be paired to foods but they do not have to be. For a beginner this is totally unnecessary beyond very basic red with beef type matchings.

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(The exception will be if you know you're ordering steak. If you order steak in a restaurant regularly, you are too boring for words.


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Makes no sense.

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4. If you're in a place you dare order wine


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Dare???? It's not [censored] russian roulette it's a bottle of damn wine. What is so [censored] daring?

Just terrible advice throughout.

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Yeah, I always order the house red with a steak at Appleby's. Bet you think Bud Light is good beer too. Almost anyone with a grill and a good cut of meat can make a better steak at home than you can get in any restaurant. Why order what you can make at home? And wine at Appleby's/Friday's/Ruby Tuesday/CPK/Chili's/Bennigan's etc. is almost always a bad idea.

Seriously, there is some bad plonk out there, something that even first timers shouldn't be subject to. And yes, if you can at least get something halfway decent when starting, you're more likely to continue.

I never said send back a BOTTLE. That's why you don't order bottles, especially when you're first starting. You can easily send back a glass. They will also let you taste glass pours before getting a full glass if you just don't know. Most decent restaurants will do this.

Finally, if a restaurant will advise a food/wine pairing, by all means take their advice. Even the finest red will taste bad if paired incorrectly. Pinot noir with steak is going to taste thin, even if you are following the red with beef rule. Some merlots would work great with steak, many will not. Italian reds don't seem to work with steaks either, but that just might be me, I'm not a big Italian fan, but I have been surprised. There is no way most people will know this, and they'll wonder what is wrong with the wine.

Being macho and thinking you can do it on your own is just a crap shoot waiting to go bad. Expertise is out there, use it.

Re: Wine and dinner
 

Ask the waiter for the house's finest bottle of Boone's Farm. Its French.

Chilled of course.

Re: Wine and dinner
 

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NYC residents are exempt, since they aren't allowed to grill at home.)

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Whaaa?

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Aren't BBQ grills illegal in NYC? Okay, maybe not completely, but for a lot of NYC, I see in the Fire Dept. Regs. they're a definite no-no.

Re: Wine and dinner
 

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NYC residents are exempt, since they aren't allowed to grill at home.)

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Whaaa?

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Yeah I was curious about this too.

Anybody have an opinion of these? I don't drink much wine but I tried this and enjoyed it, the price is cheap as well. If I liked this, what other wines would you recommend me?

http://www.thelittlepenguin.com/wine...raz_bottle.jpg

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Decent value. Australians excel at bang for the buck. Yellow Tail works as well. Then get a bottle of Lindemann's, same grape, $11-$12/bottle and compare side-by-side. You should notice an immediate difference.

Good everyday wines can be had from $8-$14/bottle. The trick is sorting the good from the bad. A good wine store will have already done the sorting for you.

Re: Wine and dinner
 

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NYC residents are exempt, since they aren't allowed to grill at home.)

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Whaaa?

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Yeah I was curious about this too.

Anybody have an opinion of these? I don't drink much wine but I tried this and enjoyed it, the price is cheap as well. If I liked this, what other wines would you recommend me?

http://www.thelittlepenguin.com/wine...raz_bottle.jpg

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I'm a fan, especially for the price

Re: Wine and dinner
 

goofy,

Ignore most everything in this thread.

When you go someplace where you think a glass of wine would be nice to have, ask the waiter to recommend a few glasses of wine. Pick one that sounds good and is reasonably priced. Just stick with ordering glasses until you've been drinking wine for a while.

Initially, you'll probably want to avoid wines that are described as very dry/oaky/tannic/big. These are all indicators of various types of strong/powerful flavors that take a little getting used to.

When you drink wines at restaurants or dinner parties or wherever, initially start remembering the types (Chardonnay, Merlot, Pinot, Cabernet, etc.) of wines and the descriptions (dry, fruity, tannic, etc.). As you try more wines, you'll figure out which tastes you like and look for those. And then start paying more attention to the specific wineries, but that's not really something that's very important until you start buying/drinking wine a lot.

If you get into wine, buy a few $10-15 bottles from the grocery or wine store and just bust them open from time to time at home to try out more stuff and see what you like.

The main point is, if you want to read/study/know guidelines/etc, all that stuff is fine. But it's really all about tasting a lot of wines and figuring out what you like.

Re: Wine and dinner
 

What he said...

Re: Ordering wine in restaurants
 

In my experience, Pinot usually tastes like sweat.

Re: Wine and dinner
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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NYC residents are exempt, since they aren't allowed to grill at home.)

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Whaaa?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I was curious about this too.

Anybody have an opinion of these? I don't drink much wine but I tried this and enjoyed it, the price is cheap as well. If I liked this, what other wines would you recommend me?

http://www.thelittlepenguin.com/wine...raz_bottle.jpg

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I've had it, it's nice.

Australian wines are the way to go if your buying bottles in a liquor store. A $8-10 bottle of Yellowtail or Jacob's Creek is the same level of quality as a $12-15 Italian or French wine.

Re: Wine and dinner
 

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This is absurd. Tasting wine is to check if the wine is corked, not whether you made a good choice.

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While this is completely true, it's also worth pointing out that if you order a bottle that isn't spoiled but turns out to be not to your liking--too sweet, too dry, whatever--any halfway decent restaurant will allow you to change your selection.

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This reminds me of the apocryphal story of the man who returned used tires to Nordstrom and they accepted the return, despite the fact that they never sold tires. It might be true (and for most restaurants it is true) but that doesn't make the practice right.

Re: Wine and dinner
 

I hate that story about Nordstrom. It's printed in every [censored] managment textbook in existance.

Edit: Also, it's made up and is also claimed by Home Depot

Re: Ordering wine in restaurants
 

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If you really want to look cool, look to see if a particular wine is served by the glass. If it is, you can ask for a taste before ordering a bottle.

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A really good restaurant will even let you taste it after you open the bottle and send it back if you don't like it. I've had a few do this for me (including, oddly, the Bellagio Buffet) though I've never sent it back because I pretty much knew what I was getting into before I ordered the wine.

Edit: Ah, now I get why they tell me to taste it. Makes more sense now. I'm always late...