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-   -   6th Street Bet > For Value or Draw? Both? (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=403715)

Guyon 12-22-2005 09:46 PM

6th Street Bet > For Value or Draw? Both?
 
Just sat down at PP Stud on my geriatric computer at my parent's house now that I'm home for the holidays and have nothing to do.

Villian in this hand is somewhat donkish, as his previous hand involved playing xxK and catching 10 K 10 on 5,6,7th respectively (and was heavily berated by the person with AA4 that didn't improve).

I've seen about 5 hands at this point, 3 of which went to showdown with incredibly loose passive play. That's why I decided to limp with this hand closing the action and with a live K and live spades. Specifically, take a look at the 6th street action.

7 Card Stud High ($3/$6), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $1 (converter)

Seat 1: $341.95
Hero: $165.50
Seat 3: $163.50
Seat 4: $162.20
Seat 5: $81
Seat 7: $162.50
Seat 8: $129

3rd Street - (1.17 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (2.50 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds

5th Street - (2.25 BB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (4.25 BB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___raises
Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises___calls

River - (10.25 BB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___calls

Total pot: (12.25 BB)

Results: POSTED IN WHITE
Main Pot: $70.50 | Rake: $3

<font color="white"> Hero: [ 6s Ks Ts As Kc Tc Kd ] [ a full house, Kings full of tens -- Ks,Kc,Kd,Ts,Tc ]

Seat 3: [ 5s 2h 4s Ac 9h 3d 2d ] [ a straight, ace to five -- Ac,5s,4s,3d,2h ]
</font>

beta1607 12-22-2005 10:17 PM

Re: 6th Street Bet > For Value or Draw? Both?
 
I like everything until 6th.

This is an easy value bet/call. The 3 bet is a little to agro here I think since you paired your door, that should be intimidating for him.

preiserone 12-22-2005 10:31 PM

Re: 6th Street Bet > For Value or Draw? Both?
 
I agree with beta, hes gotta be betting with something here. You have a decent looking board and hes still betting, your probably in trouble.

Roland 12-23-2005 10:18 AM

Re: 6th Street Bet > For Value or Draw? Both?
 
Raise 3rd. You should be ahead of his range and you want to play heads-up against him. If some other call that’s fine too.

Just call 6th. There’s practically nothing he can be raising with that you beat.

Check-raise the river. People freeze up more often than not if you bet into them on the river like that, so unless you have a reason to believe that he’s aggro on the river a check-raise is best.

Also, I don’t get the title of your post. What’s with the “for draw”?

12-23-2005 11:01 AM

Re: 6th Street Bet > For Value or Draw? Both?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Raise 3rd. You should be ahead of his range and you want to play heads-up against him. If some other call that’s fine too.

[/ QUOTE ]
Play HU with a three-flush? Personally, I'd like some callers to pump up the pot odds. I call here.

Roland 12-23-2005 11:03 AM

Re: 6th Street Bet > For Value or Draw? Both?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise 3rd. You should be ahead of his range and you want to play heads-up against him. If some other call that’s fine too.

[/ QUOTE ]
Play HU with a three-flush? Personally, I'd like some callers to pump up the pot odds. I call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read 7CSFAP...

12-23-2005 11:42 AM

Re: 6th Street Bet > For Value or Draw? Both?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Read 7CSFAP...

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't have that book, and I don't intend to buy it very soon. I've read West's and Kammen's books, and they don't advocate raising with a three-flush in early position. However, I'd be very interested in hearing what Mason and David have to say about it. If you don't mind, could you please elaborate a little further why raising is correct here?

frappeboy 12-23-2005 11:52 AM

Re: 6th Street Bet > For Value or Draw? Both?
 
You can play third street either way, both calling and raising is OK. I would prefer to raise in a looser ante structure and just call in a tighter ante structure.

6th street the original bet is fine, but when he comes over the top he has you beat here, just call.

Since you 3 bet 6th street I guess you might as well just bet the river now that you've improved. If you hadn't 3 bet 6th street you should check raise the river.

Andy B 12-23-2005 12:13 PM

Re: 6th Street Bet > For Value or Draw? Both?
 
Read 7CS4AP. Really. Both of the books you cite have some really substandard advice.

Raising third puts more money in the pot with what is quite likely the best hand. If it gets heads-up, you're more likely to win by pairing one of your big cards than you are if the pot is multi-way. Playing aggressively early may set you up to buy the pot on fifth street if the other guy hasn't made significant improvement. Limping isn't terrible, but I raise third street about every time.

BeerMoney 12-23-2005 12:47 PM

Re: 6th Street Bet > For Value or Draw? Both?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Read 7CSFAP...

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't have that book, and I don't intend to buy it very soon. I've read West's and Kammen's books, and they don't advocate raising with a three-flush in early position. However, I'd be very interested in hearing what Mason and David have to say about it. If you don't mind, could you please elaborate a little further why raising is correct here?

[/ QUOTE ]

So, there's a book out there, written by the best authors in poker, with advice you haven't seen in other books, and you refuse to read it?

The fact that you don't know why raising is a good idea should be reason enough for you to buy this book. Seriously.

Jeffage 12-23-2005 12:49 PM

Re: 6th Street Bet > For Value or Draw? Both?
 
I raise 3rd after one limper with a three flush and overs. On 6th, just call the raise. His raise is a big move after you pair your door since he should be afraid. You said he was a donk, not a maniac.

Jeff

12-23-2005 04:20 PM

Re: 6th Street Bet > For Value or Draw? Both?
 
[ QUOTE ]

So, there's a book out there, written by the best authors in poker, with advice you haven't seen in other books, and you refuse to read it?

The fact that you don't know why raising is a good idea should be reason enough for you to buy this book. Seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't refuse to buy it. It's just that I'm going to China and New Zealand for twelve months next week, and poker books aren't among my top priorities right now. Besides, I only started playing 7CS about two months ago, and from what I've heard, 7CSFAP is exactly what the title suggests - advanced. I'm not there yet. Hence, I will wait before I buy this book.

BeerMoney 12-23-2005 04:45 PM

Re: 6th Street Bet > For Value or Draw? Both?
 


Nice, I'm moving to Thailand in about 4-5 months. Let me know how you like china.

12-23-2005 05:05 PM

Re: 6th Street Bet > For Value or Draw? Both?
 
I'll do that. By the way, my buddies tell me Thailand is awesome, so I'm sure you'll have a great time there. I take it you've been there before?

12-23-2005 05:16 PM

Re: 6th Street Bet > For Value or Draw? Both?
 
Yeah, I was rather curtly told to get the book a few months ago. I did and I wish I had earlier. If you've digested West's book, it's time for 7cs4ap.

BTW, another reason for the raise on 3rd is that you will get more action when you axually do have the pair.

benwood 12-24-2005 01:16 PM

Re: 6th Street Bet > For Value or Draw? Both?
 
3rd:I prefer the raise since the 3 flush contains 2 fairly high cards that are live &amp; could pair.

6th:I would not re-raise since he knew you could easily have three 10's,but he didn't care &amp; raised anyway.

bygmesterf 12-26-2005 05:47 AM

Re: 6th Street Bet > For Value or Draw? Both?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Read 7CSFAP...

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't have that book, and I don't intend to buy it very soon. I've read West's and Kammen's books, and they don't advocate raising with a three-flush in early position. However, I'd be very interested in hearing what Mason and David have to say about it. If you don't mind, could you please elaborate a little further why raising is correct here?

[/ QUOTE ]

7CSFAP overemphasses the important of trying to get pots heads up and trying to win heads up pots. In most games that's counterproductive. You'll have maximised your %win, but your EV will be breakeven or slightly less.

Sometimes I get the impression that SMZ think that you can play losing hands, but make up for it up on volume.

preiserone 12-26-2005 06:54 AM

Re: 6th Street Bet > For Value or Draw? Both?
 
[ QUOTE ]


7CSFAP overemphasses the important of trying to get pots heads up and trying to win heads up pots. In most games that's counterproductive. You'll have maximised your %win, but your EV will be breakeven or slightly less.


Sometimes I get the impression that SMZ think that you can play losing hands, but make up for it up on volume.

[/ QUOTE ]

In this situation folding would be more -EV than raising and getting it heads up which is the best way to play the hand.

SMZ's examples in the book only give the best play for the situation, even if it is just less -EV.

preiserone 12-26-2005 07:29 AM

Re: 6th Street Bet > For Value or Draw? Both?
 
[ QUOTE ]
In this situation calling would be Less +EV than...

[/ QUOTE ]

kind of out of it when I typed that one...

Roland 12-26-2005 07:34 AM

Re: 6th Street Bet > For Value or Draw? Both?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In this situation calling would be Less +EV than...

[/ QUOTE ]

kind of out of it when I typed that one...

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. Can folding be -EV? I'm confused now.

preiserone 12-26-2005 07:35 AM

Re: 6th Street Bet > For Value or Draw? Both?
 
lol, I have no clue what I was trying to say there.

12-26-2005 08:05 PM

Re: 6th Street Bet > For Value or Draw? Both?
 
All I know about stud is that I know very little about stud. Aight. 7CSFAP is the next book I'm buying. I hope they carry poker literature in the bookstores in New Zealand. (Poker can't be too big over there, given the number of poker rooms, right?)

CJC 12-26-2005 08:43 PM

Re: 6th Street Bet > For Value or Draw? Both?
 
Hi,

You should have just called the raise on 6th and then planned on check-raising the river if you improved. His raising a paired doorcard on 6th screams that your two pair is no good.

Some people might advocate raising third, either calling or raising is fine depending on what you have done earlier throughout your session.

CJ


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