77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

10/20 6max PP 5handed.

CO openraises, buttton threebets.. dont know alot about them, well assume they suck...
sb folds, and i decide to call 2 in BB w/ 77. CO calls.


flop comes K54
i check, CO bets, BN call, i call.

turn comes T
i check, CO bets, BN call, i checkraise, CO folds, BN call

river is a 4
i check intending to call


all streets, what do u guys think?

Re: 77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

i dont really like this. I think I c/r the flop. By c/ring turn you either knockout COs [censored] hes donking with or his PP or King pair, none of which he is folding. BN seems to be holding AJ AQ or PP 66-QQ. Since players never fold pairs, and I don't see you having a lot of value on the turn I don't like this raise. Having called the flop, I prefer to call the turn(or fold), and call but not overcall a non AQJ river.

Re: 77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

I fold here. I won't call because I'm slightly ahead or way behind, and I don't like donking either.

Having said that, with the particular silliness that is the Party 10/20 right now, I think your play is neutral EV versus folding. Just don't try it in any other game ever [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

horrible.

When the CO donks into the pfr on that board he almost always has at least a pair like 99 or KJ or something. It is possible he has a smaller pp or something like A5 and this worked out for you but in general this is a stupid way to play the hand. Also not helping is the button, who at worst when he calls the turn has something like AQ which has a gazillion outs to improve so vs both of them you're in mucho trouble.

Fold the flop, since you didn't, fold the turn, calling is far better than raising and calling the river is moronic as well. check fold the river.

I'm sure you didn't play this hand cause you're much better than this, but this is a total fish way to play a hand from the flop on.

Re: 77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

[ QUOTE ]
horrible.
Also not helping is the button, who at worst when he calls the turn has something like AQ which has a gazillion outs to improve so vs both of them you're in mucho trouble.


[/ QUOTE ]

Button almost definitely either has AQ or AJ, with a slight equal possibilities of a higher PP or a lower pair.

Re: 77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

[ QUOTE ]
horrible.

When the CO donks into the pfr on that board he almost always has at least a pair like 99 or KJ or something. It is possible he has a smaller pp or something like A5 and this worked out for you but in general this is a stupid way to play the hand. Also not helping is the button, who at worst when he calls the turn has something like AQ which has a gazillion outs to improve so vs both of them you're in mucho trouble.

Fold the flop, since you didn't, fold the turn, calling is far better than raising and calling the river is moronic as well. check fold the river.

I'm sure you didn't play this hand cause you're much better than this, but this is a total fish way to play a hand from the flop on.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think we can pretty squarely put the button on an A high type gutter hand and I think we can pretty accurately put the CO on something weak most of the time. I'd expect him to checkraise better hands. it's hard for the CO to call, being squeezed in between a preflop 3-bettor and a turn check-raiser. getting it HU with the button in a pretty big pot would be a coup. it's definitely nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be. it's risky and it takes a pretty big investment so it has to work about 1 in 6 since he's getting about 9.5-2 when it works. he has 2 outs when behind and faces 10 outs when ahead and gets it hu

and you say AQ has a bunch of outs. ok, so he has about 30% equity. when it's his turn to act on the turn, the pot is 8.25 BB. so 30% isn't that much considering it's a big pot. also, he can pretty safely fold any A, Q, or J river so there are no reverse implied odds.

the flop i think i agree is a fold. he's getting 12-1 but with a bet and a 3-bet, i don't think we'll see 2 unpaired non-AK/KQ/KJ hands enough to prospectively peel there.

the river i think is a good check-call. what could he possibly be value betting? he didn't raise the flop, he didn't raise the turn, and now flawless has shown more strength than the CO, and he suddenly finds a value bet? if he had a set we would've heard from him by now. my only question is whether a bet is better than a check to induce a bluff.

Re: 77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

[ QUOTE ]
horrible.

When the CO donks into the pfr on that board he almost always has at least a pair like 99 or KJ or something. It is possible he has a smaller pp or something like A5 and this worked out for you but in general this is a stupid way to play the hand. Also not helping is the button, who at worst when he calls the turn has something like AQ which has a gazillion outs to improve so vs both of them you're in mucho trouble.

Fold the flop, since you didn't, fold the turn, calling is far better than raising and calling the river is moronic as well. check fold the river.

I'm sure you didn't play this hand cause you're much better than this, but this is a total fish way to play a hand from the flop on.

[/ QUOTE ]
wow.
calm down dude, are you drunk?
obviously i disagree with alot of what u said, but no time now...
hopefully some others will chime in, then. i will give some further thoughts.
BTW/ dont thinhk iom offended or anything, im not. no worries... i can take it... hahaa.

Re: 77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

i agree with bk on every part

Re: 77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] it.

Super high variance. About 0EV. IMO. But win or lose, it makes you look like a fukkin retard, which is awesome.

I think it's close btwn check/calling and betting the river. Some of these guys who suck are going to call with AQ or AJ on the river but will check behind.

Re: 77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

You don't think 99 or 88 will bet/fold the turn, while AJ/AQ will bet call (remember these guys likely suck)?

Re: 77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] it.

Super high variance. About 0EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

shocked that this is coming from a kid that can't stop bitching when he loses [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's close btwn check/calling and betting the river. Some of these guys who suck are going to call with AQ or AJ on the river but will check behind.

[/ QUOTE ]


that's what i'm thinking too. his opponent is rarely bluffing here.

Re: 77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

[ QUOTE ]
You don't think 99 or 88 will bet/fold the turn, while AJ/AQ will bet call (remember these guys likely suck)?

[/ QUOTE ]


the only big problem about their suckage is that the CO might pay off with 99 [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: 77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

[ QUOTE ]
shocked that this is coming from a kid that can't stop bitching when he loses

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you didn't see my posts. I am poker zen.

Re: 77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am poker zen when I run good, yet I still play 1,000 hands/week and think I suck at poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

Preflop, I would cap.

On the flop I fold, but the turn play is interesting if you think CO is good. But since you have no reads, you are just firing and hoping something good happens. On the river you should probably check fold.

Re: 77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

This seems fine except imo a river bet is much better than c/c. You'll be called by A-high quite often but almost never bluffed.

I think the primary mistake that BK and perhaps others are making is giving CO way too much credit after his flop donk. An unknown flop donker at 10/20 can have a huge range, including pairs of 5's, 4's, 76, 87, A2, A3, 66, 33/22 and even total air. Folding the flop would be a mistake.

The turn has some two-way bluffing equity because besides possibly making CO fold 88/99 there is also a decent chance of making button fold QQ/JJ/99/88 all of which fit pretty well in his range.

Re: 77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

[ QUOTE ]
On the river you should probably check fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
woah.
i thought the decision was between betting and checkcalling... i expected some of the better players to say i should go ahead and VB.
checkfolding this riv is pretty silly considering im beating his two way most likely hands... lots of donks will autobluff in a pot this big when HU on river which was the reason i went w/ the check.

Re: 77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

[ QUOTE ]


Super high variance. About 0EV. IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]
really??
i thought my preflop call mightve been thin and my river play may have been incorrect, but continuing past flop has got to be way +++EV, i havent seen anything but weakness displayed by either of them... COs donkbet = weakness, BN "just" call = weakness. i thought if i did CR flop no1 would fold and id be setting myself up to be outplayed or spew chips on turn, so i called...
now i get to turn, decent card... bet, checkcall, or checkraise? all are viable and theyre all better than checkfolding (4 one bet)...
i went for the checkraise cause it allows me to trap some more of BNs $$ and represent big strength so i get to put the squeeze on CO when he has me beat w/ 88/99.

Re: 77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

You might already be beat on the flop (remember not everyone plays their hands how you would) and when you are you've got 2 outs so it's tough to improve, and when you are ahead they've got 6-10 outs to hit vs you. I think these factors make it super close EV-wise.

BTW I think I favor betting the river.

Re: 77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

[ QUOTE ]
You might already be beat on the flop (remember not everyone plays their hands how you would)

[/ QUOTE ]
obviously... if i was against good TAGs (me), i would have much more to worry about given the actiion... bad small stakes players check TP in COs spot and raise TP in BNs spot... this is a near universal truth and why i felt i needed to continue...
[ QUOTE ]
and when you are you've got 2 outs so it's tough to improve, and when you are ahead they've got 6-10 outs to hit vs you. I think these factors make it super close EV-wise.

[/ QUOTE ]
suresure... this is the reason i did not raise flop... not much value there and almost no chance of getting HU... no point.

[ QUOTE ]
BTW I think I favor betting the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
me2, but im still not sure about that... hopefully dcifrthis wont chime in and say its close so it doesnt matter what u do... that annoys me, i dont really buy that.

Re: 77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

Right. And just to be clear I think you probably played the hand the best possble way to.

But it's close. And might not matter. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: 77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

[ QUOTE ]
10/20 6max PP 5handed.

CO openraises, buttton threebets.. dont know alot about them, well assume they suck...
sb folds, and i decide to call 2 in BB w/ 77. CO calls.


flop comes K54
i check, CO bets, BN call, i call.

turn comes T
i check, CO bets, BN call, i checkraise, CO folds, BN call

river is a 4
i check intending to call


all streets, what do u guys think?

[/ QUOTE ]

preflop is debatable. I think you fold or cap, since it's a CO raise he may have something like 98 and for 1 more SB you make it hard for him to call, and you're stating that draws won't be cheap in this pot for him. Plus by capping it you're more likely to get a hand like 88, 99 to fold postflop if a few overs come.

All said I lean towards folding because even I doubt a cap will get the CO to fold for 2 SB. and my hand plays like crap OoP against 2 players

Re: 77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

I like to do that time to time except I usually bet river because a) I don't want to show my hand and b) they call with ace high and small pairs now and then and c) gives them one more chance to fold a better hand

Re: 77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

Preflop, I like a fold, but calling or capping are close.

Flop call is good.

Turn play is ultra-debatable. Donker may have a mid-pair or any of the hands that Dane mentioned. Button however is where the problem is. He doesn't have to have AQ or AJ like others say (at least not when it's your action on the turn), and I don't see those as a super easy hands for him to have although they are in his range. He could very easily have AT, KK, 99 or 88 as well.

Once you make the turn raise and "get away with it", it becomes fairly obvious that CO had nothing great and button has AQ, AJ or AT....now with a less likely chance of 99 and 88. Discounting 99 and 88 and considering a call from the ace high hands should get us get us right around neutral EV on a river bet.

EDIT: I wouldn't be surprised seeing QQ or JJ from the button either.

resultz
 

he checked behind w/AQ and i won the pot.

Re: 77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

Spewage.

Fold preflop.

Check/fold the flop (given that both oppoenents have already like the flop enough to bet/call respectively. And remember, these two open-raised and 3-bet preflop). The only other suggestion for the flop would be to lead out ... not check-raise.

Check/fold turn. (Again, both villains are still in this pot).

Check/fold river. (What the hell are you still doing in this hand?)


Adam

Re: 77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

If your gonna take this line I think you gotta value bet the river.

Re: 77. kinda funky. PP10/20.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If your gonna take this line I think you gotta value bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]