Liberalism - How Far Has it Strayed From Original Concept?
 

Liberalism

Don't you all think that modern day liberalism in America has strayed a long way from principles 5-8 ?


"The government that governs least, governs best."

I really like this phrase. To answer nicky regarding why I prefer capitalism over socialism, I believe that socialism promotes a too powerful central government.

Re: Liberalism - How Far Has it Strayed From Original Concept?
 

"The government that governs least, governs best"

A country whose territory stretches across the continent, and whose empire stretches across the world, with 300 million citizens, is a lot different place than Thomas Jefferson's country. There ain't much government in Liberia. I say the government which governs best governs best.

Re: Liberalism - How Far Has it Strayed From Original Concept?
 

"A country whose territory stretches across the continent, and whose empire stretches across the world, with 300 million citizens, is a lot different place than Thomas Jefferson's country."

Ok

"There ain't much government in Liberia."

So I don't think it's a statement advocating anarchy.

"I say the government which governs best governs best."

I think you misunderstood what the statement means or don't want to acknowledge it. It's so sad that Liberalism has been perverted into promoting a bigger, more pervasive, more intrusive, more concentrated central government authority at the expense of personal freedom and diffusion of government powers.

Re: Liberalism - How Far Has it Strayed From Original Concept?
 

Well, sure. It all depends on definitions really. The people who are called liberals now are very much against most of those principles. They kind of give lip service to some, but really are against freedom. And so are most conservatives. They want an authoritarian regime that serves their purposes. The libertarians are the philosophically purest party and are liberals in the classic sense, but have little influence.

Re: Liberalism - How Far Has it Strayed From Original Concept?
 

This is from the website Tom posted a link to:

“10. A belief in the existence of a transcendental order of truth which is accessible to man’s natural reason and capable of evoking a moral response. It is an order requiring both individual thought and will for its realization, i.e., it is a potential ordre requiring individual thought and will for its translation into actuality. Through his autonomous reason and in the light of his conscience the individual avoids anarchy by translating the principles of this natural order into practice. The choice between order and anarchy revolves upon the individual and more particularly, upon individual conscience. Thus conscience is the keystone of the liberal doctrine.”


‘Transcendental order of truth’? This statement has all the airs of theology. If I didn’t know better I would say this is straight out of a Jesuit college primer on morality and ethics and a lead in to why everyone should believe in God. What is this misty transcendental order of truth anyway? Do the authorities bottle it up in little pills and dispensed it to the citizenry? Is it put into children’s lunch at public schools? Is it something simpler, like the pleasant buzz after a large meal accoumplied by three martinis?


“Man’s natural reason”. I think Thomas Aquinas said man’s natural reason would lead him to God. Theology again! Man is a political animal – not a rational animal. Natural reason is a misnomer.

Much of this #10 is nonsensical, in my opinion. Some is interesting, if not sensible. It has the feel of metaphysics, theology and politics all mixed together in one volatile cocktail - A rather dangerous and explosive mélange. The last sentence is very provocative and has broad implications.

I now believe that I am a liberal. [img]/forums/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] Thank God for that. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

-Zeno

Re: Liberalism - How Far Has it Strayed From Original Concept?
 

Zeno,

Exactly the part of the definition I was drawn to for the reasons you mention--among others. The philosophical project in the last 35 years or so has dismantled the belief in transcendent truth, but, of course, this is an old definition. What the hell is "natural reason," and can only men possess it? Whenever you spot the word "natural," be careful.

As far as having less government in my life, I don't really see the difference. Should I? Is government smaller? Do I feel more secure in my person?

Glad to hear you're a liberal--but which kind?

Re: Liberalism - How Far Has it Strayed From Original Concept?
 

well in response to hdpm, read ron paul's 'neoconned' its on web, a one hour speech he gave on house floor recently. (basically he says 'neocons' are trojan horse who liberals have highjacked conservative movement, 'liberals' are counterculturals, and the true 'liberals', classical conservatives, are gone, except for remnants like ron paul.)

on government, well , we have beaurocrats(sp) in d.c. who tax local money and then send x% back to locals , while setting policy for things like local school programs. seems like common sense that local government could take care of that better, more efficiently, and more under control of people, as opposed to authoritarian central government that is out of the political control of people.

Re: Liberalism - How Far Has it Strayed From Original Concept?
 

I read somewhere recently that the Republicans have become Democrats, and the Democrats have become Socialists.

Re: Liberalism - How Far Has it Strayed From Original Concept?
 

I think it is important to understand that the word liberal as used today is simply a pejorative that is attached to anything that the conservatives are against and have little to do with the definition of liberal.

Interestingly enough the word conservative is now attached to anything that the Republicans are for and have little to do with a fundamental conservative philosophy.

An example of this house of mirrors is that it was liberal to nation build (see Bush's rhetoric during the election) and it is liberal to oppose the occu-liberation of Iraq and perform nationbuilding (which could easily have been passed off to the UN to pick up the 50 Billion plus annual tab).

Re: Liberalism - How Far Has it Strayed From Original Concept?
 

"Glad to hear you're a liberal--but which kind? "

That's the conundrum isn't it. I'm a liberal with a handgun and the moral scruples to blast anyone that enters my castle. I'm a liberal that is voting for Bush. I'm a liberal that uses his brains. I'm a liberal that is a conservative. And that last statement speaks volumes, methinks. [img]/forums/images/icons/smirk.gif[/img]

If you put all that together you have - well, I don't know really. I think a word connoisseur like you could come with something, but please keep the sarcasm and ribbing to a tolerable level.

As for the smaller or bigger government argument - well I like the old saw "its not the size that matters but how you use it". [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

-Zeno