Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

Villian is pretty loose, moderately aggro and tricky...He's not "good", but he's not a complete moran. I'm not running tracker so I dont have any numbers but I'd guess 35-45 VPIP, 8-12 PFR. A few hands earlier he bluff raised my river bet and showed after I folded; if that helps any

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button folds, BB calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero...

Make it 3? Wait and raise any river? Is this situation even worth discussing?

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

I would fold preflop (open on the CO tho).

I call and raise the river.

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] just looked to pretty to fold PF against these monkeys

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

Call and raise the river. This should be SOP here.

Brad

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

It's 5-handed, not 6 -- UTG with 6 people I probably let A6s go, but in MP to start I may or may not play it (depending on what kind of mood I am in, the phase of the moon, crap like that).

Raise now if you think he is semi-bluffing (and is on a draw that will pay to see the river but not showdown if they brick), raise the river if you think he will bluff again on the river.

-K

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

Let me make sure i understand this line.

I guess 5-handed it's pretty unlikely that the case A is out, and that if it is it's matched with a better kicker than ours.

When the A comes on the turn, villain is inclined to believe his T (or maybe his 8) is good, and so bets out. If we raise here, he will probably fold a worse hand, but 3-bet a better hand, so that's no good. By flat calling, we hope to induce another bet on the river, and then we raise, because our river raise has a better chance of getting called than a raise on the turn (and even if it doesn't, we win one more BB).

Are we folding to a river 3-bet? If so, we could save 1 BB by raising on the turn and getting 3-bet there and folding. But we're probably ahead.

Is this the right idea? Did i miss anything?

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

Why not just pop villian on the turn for a raise? Looks like he would call it.

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why not just pop villian on the turn for a raise? Looks like he would call it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone who bluff raises the river and shows it at this level is usually a habitual bluffer. Therefore he will probably bet again on the river guaranteeing us to get 1 more bet in. He might also be more willing to call the river raise with something weak netting us 2 more bets as our raise is odd. We're not guaranteed to get another bet in if we raise the turn and he's outright bluffing, or betting something really weak. If he's the type to only bet a decent hand or semi bluff with something like KQ and won't bet again on the river then a turn raise is justified. Against this opponent though waiting is better.

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why not just pop villian on the turn for a raise? Looks like he would call it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This subject is very complicated. Let me give you an expert example on this topic.

You limp UTG with A8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and the next guy raises. Three players coldcall and the BB makes it 3-bets. Everyone calls. Six to the flop for 18 SB.

Flop: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB checks to you and you bet. UTG+1 raises. Everyone folds to the BB who makes it 3-bets. You cap and UTG+1 folds.

Turn (14 BB): A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB bets, You Call

River (16 BB): 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB bets, You raise, BB 3-bets and You fold


If you can understand this hand, you have this game down to a T. I'll give more thoughts on OP hand later. The main considerations are the villians ability to bluff and the pot size. As you can see though from the example I provided, hand reading is VERY important as well.

In the OP's hand, the villian's most likely holding is Jx. Is there any point in raising him if he does hold something like JT in a 5 BB pot?

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

After looking better at the hand posted I can see that it would be better to wait and pop villain on the river. Unless I'm looking at it wrong, we're either ahead and no river card can help villain, or we're behind and drawing near dead. (We're behind AT[4 ways], A8[4 ways], TT and 88) But I don't see villain holding any of those hands.

With this new hand that you posted I don't see why Hero would raise the river if he's going to fold to a raise? Why not just give a crying call and see if villain has the straight?