Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

I have the germ of an idea. I am not sure exactly where we can take it this notion, so I will throw it out here for a starter of a discussion.

If we take a look at where we (mankind) are now - I am thinking in terms such as ethics, overall global thinking, quality of life - whatever category we deem important to include - anything material (worth it) enough to be included - looking back in history, rank a few individuals who have made things totally different than things would be had they not lived.

For example, Einstein, Jesus, Darwin. Now for the sake of discussion, I am saying the things they did, taught, discovered would not have been accomplished yet, up to this point in time (had they not lived). And no one else would have done what they did.


Then once we have a list, I want to see is : Who can be eliminated? Who would we eliminate? Who cannot be eliminated? Who should not be eliminated. Example Darwin - he doesn’t publish until the year 2010 so we don’t have him, yet. Can we do without him and still get by having never had him around. In this example, can we erase him (therefore evolution) and still not really care that much.


For these last set of questions, I am thinking in the pure form. For example Jesus - I find it hard to erase Him and still say we are just as well off or would be better off if He was erased. One can argue that man has uses his name for bad - wars , whatever. That is obvious and should not be considered in the discussion. The pure thought of the person on the list is the only thing of relevance here?

I think if this is of interest: we can post some folk, give a brief idea why you think the person should be included. Kind of a nomination for the list to be compiled to be judged then in a new post. Judged for agreement on those that can be eliminated and those that cannot.

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

I really think I am thinking more of the people who have added to thought, rather than invented something. Like I said, this is just a notion for right now. So, I don’t really want to limit the field. Any suggestions on how we can refine my notion to be of any use is welcomed.

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

Yeah, you're gonna need to re-phrase the question, cuz there is no one person mankind could not have lived without.

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

If I understand your question, I think you're asking what ideas and things that exist now could be erased from existence, and have considerable consequences.

I think antibiotics, pasteurization, printing press(biggest one) , anesthesia, poker [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img], air conditioning [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

just too many to list.
Shooby

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I understand your question, I think you're asking what ideas and things that exist now could be erased from existence, and have considerable consequences.

I think antibiotics, pasteurization, printing press(biggest one) , anesthesia, poker [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img], air conditioning [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

just too many to list.
Shooby

[/ QUOTE ]

If thats the type of answer we're looking for then cricket is top by miles.

chez

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

I am actually thinking of People. For example I think most would agree that had Hitler never have existed our world would be off. I am thinking of the opposite. Who can we not have done without. I am not being literal here. I mean had X person not existed, our would be Y instead of Z(how it is now).

Probably thinking in terms of philosophers/religious, but not limited to those categories and not excluding scientists by any means. - Inventors, discoverers, artists whatever.

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

Thats most likely impossible. Whos to say that Hitler's exsistence did not prevent Stalin from taking over Europe? The point is that even the most destructive events could prevent other, more horrible events.

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

Ok, then I nominate the "people" who stumbled upon the printing press, pasteurization, anestesia, antibiotics. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Shooby

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

I agree. Sklansky will probably about to bust in and point out to you that chaos theory suggests that the most miniscule alteration of an initial condition can significantly change the long-term behavior of a system.

I don't think you can hold all other things equal here.

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

I think that if we were to erase the existance of ANY one person in the history of mankind, ALL history after that point will have changed. EVERYONE has an ifluence on all around them, and the absence of this influence will alter every occurence thereafter.

Person "A" never met person "B" as he "should have" as person "A" has been "erased". Person "B" never influnces preson "C" as he should have because of the lack of person "A"'s presence.

By the time we get to person "X", he's no longer making his revolutionary discovery, and the entire history of mankind has been altered.

All people have been "key" influences in the history of mankind. Change one, change all...

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

how about ..... The caveman who discovered fire. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

Fine you want a straight answer? I have three.

Athiest answer: The guy who discovered the first vagina, I think we can all agree he made things better for all of us.

Christian answer: Adam

Sklansky answer: A man named Dungoth in Indonesia in 2000 BC pissing in a river which raised the temperature of the already tropically warm water. This newly warm water then evaporated And rose up in a thermal to complete a newly formed cloud which was carried East on an air current. By the time this cloud reached The sierra nevada mountans it was a rainy thunder cloud. There is a place at the foothills of this mountain range which in several thousand years will be known as Sonora California where a Caveman named ehud lived, This Caveman was witness to a thunderstorm from the same cloud Dungoth helped create and saw a bolt of lightning strike an old oak tree which caught fire. He ran close to investigate this new flame which he had never seen and learned about the heat it gave. He learned how it spread and needed fuel to burn. From this day foward he maintained the same flame in his cave that he found on the treebranch of the lightning struck tree. He almost let the flame go out once on a sling hunting trip but managed to add more wood just in time.
As the season changed to winter a cavewoman named Aleahud (who was from the same evolutionary chain, from the same primordial puddle of ooze struck by lightning as Ehud) became very very cold due to the changing season, and wandered in search of shelter.
As she wandered She noticed a pillar of smoke in the distance and her instincts told her to investigate. As she approached she noticed Ehud's cave and drew closer to investigate. As she entered the cave Ehud jumped out from behind a boulder in the cave thinking she was a Bear and clubbed her in the head.
Hours later bound by a rope from braided tree bark she awoke from her unconscious stupor to find Ehud sniffing her crotch. She let out a blood curling scream which startled Ehud driving him to the back of the cave.
Eventually as days past they began to attempt communication and since they were evloved from the same puddle worm species they got along rather well.
It wasn't long before Ehud discovered vagina.
So I can say without a doubt Dungoth is the one Human we could never do without.

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

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A man named Dungoth in Indonesia in 2000 BC

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I think Dungoth was older than that.

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

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I think Dungoth was older than that.

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Yes this was definitly a christian safe number

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

Umm, I am not sure if those who posted, about if one person didn’t exist then the whole world would be changed, etc, realize it or not but we can’t actually erase anyone for real.

The topic was just a thought.

Btw, you guys do realize that in the cartoons when the steamroller rolls over the cat and then the cat pops up after being flattened – that can’t happen in real life, right?

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

The answer is obvious - Kevin Bacon. Everyone is linked to Kevin one way or another.

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The answer is obvious - Kevin Bacon. Everyone is linked to Kevin one way or another.

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Perfect. Nice catch. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

so say Joe Bloggins invented the wheel. if joe bloggins never existed does that mean the wheel would not have been created yet? seems like he is a pretty required person in our world.

what about the dude that discovered fire? it would suck if he didn't exist and we hadn't discovered how to make fire yet

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

I'd have to say that the wheel wasn't created but rather discovered just like fire was.

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

Read Alfred Bester's short Story "The Men Who Murdered Mohammed" for a rejoinder to this idea.

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
Read Alfred Bester's short Story "The Men Who Murdered Mohammed" for a rejoinder to this idea.

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Is this title available online?

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd have to say that the wheel wasn't created but rather discovered just like fire was.

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alright, well if the men who "discovered" said items didn't exist, we'd be hooped

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

Im amazed no-one responded to the casual inclusion of Jesus in your example list! (unless I missed it)

We could quite easily have lived without a terrorist who created a popular cult. Most benefits to society that people would attribute to Jesus were due to Roman society.
(Any claim of Jesus improving earth's morality status cannot be humoured)

I would say that all Jesus caused were wars and conflict. Explosions of religion no doubt retarded scientific thinking.

Maybe a new thread could be started, listing people we could have really done without?

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

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I would say that all Jesus caused were wars and conflict.

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What war did he cause? And don't tell me any his followers caused, because I don't believe (if he existed and said most of what is attributed to him) that he ever encouraged war-like behavior. And the people disposed to starting wars in his name would probably find a suitable excuse to start wars should he never have lived.

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

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I'd have to say that the wheel wasn't created but rather discovered just like fire was.

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Why do you have to say that?

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

I vote for the guys who invented the internet. If it wasn't for them, all us idiots couldn't get together and discuss important questions like "Who can mankind have not lived without?"

We'd all have to get lives. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I vote for the guys who invented the internet. If it wasn't for them, all us idiots couldn't get together and discuss important questions like "Who can mankind have not lived without?"

We'd all have to get lives. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Isn't that the truth? I think this is one post most of us, if not all would agree wtih. Bravo.

And many thanks to the gang who invented the internet.

Only 2 possible answers?
 

It seems there are only 2 possible answers to the question you posed, ie
"Who can mankind have not lived without?"

(well maybe 3 or 4!)

A} Adam/Eve (or other primary creation of the God of the religion of choice)

B) The offspring of the parents of the forebearer of some unknown years ago who made the evolutionary cut of natural selection and from whom mankind eventually emerged.


Other people of modern times may have changed how we lived but mankind would have lived without them, nonetheless.

My vote is for B, by the way.

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I vote for the guys who invented the internet. If it wasn't for them, all us idiots couldn't get together and discuss important questions like "Who can mankind have not lived without?"

We'd all have to get lives. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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You mean Al Gore? Yeah, things would be very different had he not lost in 2000. :P

(Al Gore was quoted out of context, btw--he just said he was more legislatively involved with creating the internet than anyone else, which is true)


As for Darwin, Alfred Russell Wallace came up with evolutionary theory concurrently and Darwin gave him joint credit for the idea.


As for the whole thing? I think you need the original humans from Africa, but after that it's far too complex an issue to seriously address. We don't have sociologically deterministic math like in the Foundation trilogy. It's so hard to disentangle individual human achievements from their supporting network of other humans and other temporal environmental conditions as to make this question unanswerable by me (if I'm being honest) and at the same time pointless.

It's also a staggering list. So many individuals have contributed such important ideas upon which further ideas were built in addition to had so much political influence that this list might include milllions of individuals (in part because so many people were important when the earth's population was lower and the influence of earlier peoples would influence later peoples in chaotic and exponential ways). My list would include every Nobel Prize winner and every viable candidate for starters.

Re: Who can mankind have not lived without?
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
Read Alfred Bester's short Story "The Men Who Murdered Mohammed" for a rejoinder to this idea.

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I followed your advice and read this today, really enjoyed it.

Do scientists believe the (following text in white so as not to spoil it) <font color="white">individual continuim theory? </font>