Don\'t know how to classify this hand (bad bead, major suck out, ???)
 

I'm in the CO with QTs. LAP in MP open raises, folded to me, I call, button folds, SB calls, folded back to raiser.

Flop:

QTT

SB checks, MP bets, I raise (to chase out the other T, maybe AT or KT), both players call.

Turn

J

Checked to me, I bet, both players call.

River:

J

Checked to me, I check, knowing that someone has a J.

Showdown:

MP (pre-flop raiser) as AA.
I have Ts full of Qs.
SB has JT, Js full of Ts.

Thoughts?

Re: Don\'t know how to classify this hand (bad bead, major suck out, ???)
 

Similar thing happened to me today. Turned and Rivered Aces made my Jacks go down proverbial toilet and lost loads to some random AT holding on a JTx flop. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Don\'t know how to classify this hand (bad bead, major suck out, ???)
 

You shouldn't be cold calling with this hand even against a LAP. 3-bet him if you can isolate him, fold otherwise. On the flop, raising is ok, but it definitely will not "drive out" the other T, even T2o is going nowhere. Raise this flop if you believe that you won't be bet into again on the turn, otherise wait until the turn to raise to get more money in.

I have no idea what SB was attempting to do, but he played this horribly. You lost a lot less money than you should have.

Re: Don\'t know how to classify this hand (bad bead, major suck out, ???)
 

you cold-called a raise with QTs. you raised the flopped 2nd nut full. you raised because you thought a ten would fold.

Re: Don\'t know how to classify this hand (bad bead, major suck out, ???)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in the CO with QTs. LAP in MP open raises, folded to me, I call, button folds, SB calls, folded back to raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is an EASY fold without a read on the raiser. if you have a read and control then you can reraise to isolate as long as you have a malliable table. QTs just ain't too good.

[ QUOTE ]


Flop:

QTT

SB checks, MP bets, I raise (to chase out the other T, maybe AT or KT), both players call.


[/ QUOTE ]

you include no suits. id call here for sure most of the time. the reason is that you DONT WANT to chase out the other ten because that ten is making a mistake playing against you given your respective holdlings. not only is that ten not going to fold to your flop raise, you may cost yourself bets later on by announcing strength so soon. also, you have ALL draws (other than the odd boat draw) drawing 100% dead to you and they are, therefore, not getting the proper price to play. LET THEM IN!!! then rape them on the expensive streets when they hit their dead straight and flush draws.

[ QUOTE ]


Turn

J

Checked to me, I bet, both players call.


[/ QUOTE ]

standard.

[ QUOTE ]

River:

J

Checked to me, I check, knowing that someone has a J.


[/ QUOTE ]

what gave you the idea somebody had a jack? i can agree with your check here since you don't want to be checkraised but you still gave no indication as to why you fear the jack.

[ QUOTE ]


Showdown:

MP (pre-flop raiser) as AA.
I have Ts full of Qs.
SB has JT, Js full of Ts.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think you're in a great game and lost so little money, relatively speaking, on this hand that you should be thankful they suck so badly.

all in all i think you need to rethink what to do on the flop in these situations. go for the overcalls on the flop and make the draws think they're live. then when they complete and put money in ONLY THEN do they realize how dead they were. and you profit enormously from that simple error of putting money in when dead. and you can also see WHY its so important to lengthen you're odds when there's a possibility of YOU drawing dead.

-Barron

Re: Don\'t know how to classify this hand (bad bead, major suck out, ???)
 

let me clarify what astro implied and my own thoughts:

"you cold-called a raise with QTs" - if you want to isolate the LA player, then 3bet him and get position or fold, you don't want the blinds in with that hand. Notice if you 3-bet, you'll probably win this hand, unless the SB will call 2.5 bets cold with JT.

"you raised the flopped 2nd nut full. you raised because you thought a ten would fold" - if you're raising to fold a ten, you're thinking is waaaaay off. You want the ten to CALL, even if it's AT or KT, let him chase his 3 outs. You want the other crappier tens to fill up, although not twice on the Jack.

After the flop, yes, you took a runner runner perfect perfect beat, but it's your thought process that seems very suspect.

Re: Don\'t know how to classify this hand (bad bead, major suck out, ???)
 

I think you meant to post here.

Re: Don\'t know how to classify this hand (bad bead, major suck out, ???)
 

As others have already explained in your other "are you ready to move to higher limits" thread, this hand indicates you are certainly not ready and need more time to apply the concepts you are reading...or at least read them more carefully.

I don't think you read anywhere to cold call a raise with QTs, this is certainly a fold preflop. You flop a monster and play it fearing a better hand (only QQ beats you here on this flop) and are even trying to push out AT/KT by raising? This is a great sign of not only weak-tight play, but shows a complete lack of knowledge on the game and ANY player types you may encounter (nevermind the maniacs and LAGs you are claiming to be playing). NO ONE is folding ANY T there with only 3 players...nevermind AT/KT.

Definitely, definitely spend more time in the lower limits, read the forums, post some more hands, keep reading and applying, and try to build up your bankroll.

At least you posted this hand, because if you continue to play this hand or like this in mid limits or above (or any limit really), you will certainly get crushed.

Re: Don\'t know how to classify this hand (bad bead, major suck out, ???)
 

I would bet the river when checked to there about 100% of the time.

Re: Don\'t know how to classify this hand (bad bead, major suck out, ??
 

[ QUOTE ]
You shouldn't be cold calling with this hand even against a LAP. 3-bet him if you can isolate him, fold otherwise. On the flop, raising is ok, but it definitely will not "drive out" the other T, even T2o is going nowhere. Raise this flop if you believe that you won't be bet into again on the turn, otherise wait until the turn to raise to get more money in.

I have no idea what SB was attempting to do, but he played this horribly. You lost a lot less money than you should have.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you in that:

A. I shouldn't have called and
B. I should have 3-bet to isolate.

But to "justify" A., I will say that I did not have a lot of respect for him.

I felt that the SB was holding some sort of paint/draw. I felt he had the J based on HOW he checked the river. I felt a check-raise attempt was on the horizon.

When I didn't get re-raised on the flop, I knew that the pre-flop raiser didn't like the flop, but still had a strong hand. I had the SB on a KJ, or Tx.

Hope this thought process doesn't upset too many of you.

Re: Don\'t know how to classify this hand (bad bead, major suck out, ??
 

you don't get it...you're not skilled enough to play that marginal hand even if you don't respect the raiser..FOLD!!!

on the flop you're STILL not understanding that given you're read you need to CALL NOT RAISE!! you want them to hit their draws and you make them think they're getting a good price...they're not because the draws are drawing dead to your boat...this way you'll risk little (very safe flop for your hand) in order to gain much (excessive action on later streets from hands that wouldn't have given it w/o a flop call--they'd suspect a boat quicker and give less action with their completed draw after you raise the flop)...you're just not getting it...

please go and study, play lower limit, and listen to what those who have given you advice had to say.

-Barron

Re: Don\'t know how to classify this hand (bad bead, major suck out, ???)
 

Your pre-flop call is horrible, as is your reason for raising the flop, as I don't think anyone has ever folded a T here in the storied history of Texas Hold 'em. It's like saying you raised with A8 on a AA4 board 'to try and get someone off AQ'.

Re: Don\'t know how to classify this hand (bad bead, major suck out, ??
 

I would classify this as a major suckout and bad beat. One guy has QT and the other guy has JT and they both manage to get lucky and suck out on AA. Yes, this is definitely a major suckout and bad beat for AA.

Re: Don\'t know how to classify this hand (bad bead, major suck out, ???)
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's like saying you raised with A8 on a AA4 board 'to try and get someone off AQ'.


[/ QUOTE ]

actually, its like saying you raised with A4 on AA4 to try to get somebody off AQ [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ... gotta read what the poster said and did...

you gave him too much credit.

-Barron

Re: Don\'t know how to classify this hand (bad bead, major suck out, ??
 

This has got to be the funniest post ever. He raised the flop to get a 10 to fold. Did I read that right?

Re: Don\'t know how to classify this hand (bad bead, major suck out, ??
 

[ QUOTE ]
I felt he had the J based on HOW he checked the river. I felt a check-raise attempt was on the horizon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I missed it, but I'm assuming this was live play? If not, then I'm wondering how you could tell this.

[ QUOTE ]
Hope this thought process doesn't upset too many of you.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not upsetting anyone. People here are trying to help you, not flame you, when they suggest posting hands like these in the micro or small stakes forum. But if you're going to post here, you better bring your big league fastball, cause this forum is like playing in the show.

That's why I don't post hands here, and post them down in AA ball in the micro forum when I post my limit hands. I play goot. But not goot enough for the mid-high forum.

Re: Don\'t know how to classify this hand (bad bead, major suck out, ??
 

Yes, it was live play. I haven't tried online yet. Don't plan to, either.

me 2
 

i would have played EXACTLY the same way [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

btw, are you multi-tabling 15/30 online? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Don\'t know how to classify this hand (bad bead, major suck out, ???)
 

OK.

Yes, it is true that this player is not ready for this forum.

Yes, it is true that there are several questionable comments in his post.

And yes, I think everyone is correct in telling him he's noplace near ready for the Mid/High Forum.

I take exception to HOW some folks here are telling him.

Believe me, I'm not overly sensitive (see many of my posts).

But some of you all sound like kids in the lunchroom snickering that the new kid has the wrong brand of sneakers on or something.

LRAO, you're not ready for this forum yet, much less the limits you're talking about. Take my word for it when I say that this is not open to interpretation. Play $5/10, whatever...but don't play any bigger than that because you are gonna get carved up.

I hope you accept this advice in the spirit in which it is offered.

Re: Don\'t know how to classify this hand (bad bead, major suck out, ??
 

[ QUOTE ]
But some of you all sound like kids in the lunchroom snickering that the new kid has the wrong brand of sneakers on or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rushmore, you are very nice gentleman. The forum is better and more civil place due to people w/ spirits like you. But El Diablo enjoys the lunchroom! Olé!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Don\'t know how to classify this hand (bad bead, major suck out, ??
 

You have enough posts. Stop padding.

-Diplomat

Re: Don\'t know how to classify this hand (bad bead, major suck out, ???)
 

LOL-- I thought he was trying to get out another T because the pot was so big he didn't want someone else to hit their kicker. Not that I agree with this thinking, but then I don't agree with the pre-flop call either.

Re: Don\'t know how to classify this hand (bad bead, major suck out, ???)
 

hi lrao
whenever you hit powerfully like this with an aggressive betting into you, and a SB behind you who may be looking to check-raise, it's sometimes (not always) a good idea to slow-play. the reason to slow a little in this spot is because not only might the SB fold hands that cannot improve over yours, but if there is some chance that he is checking to check-raise, a raise of the aggressive might not only discourage his check-raise, but he may also check-call instead of betting out on the expensive round. whenever i hear about a SB possibly being spooked into passively calling, i think, 'oh my'. we must never spook a lively SB. well lrao, you can relax. if this SB was lively, he is also dangerously unreadable. and it is well that you tried to fold him out. if you do encounter a lively SB, do not cap from LP, especially in a good multi-way, with your powerful hands that figure to be in the lead. you want the SB to betout and drive the action around to you on the expensive round. in short-handed games, you should usually raise just as you did, with hands not quite as strong as yours, when the pot is a little bit larger than the one posted, when the SB is lively. however, the stronger your hand, and the smaller the pot, the more you need to consider slow-playing those times the SB drops out of the lively range, to less than lively but greater than well adjusted. somewhere in there. does he have bounce in his step? does he carry a lot pens around in his top pocket? with a pull over sweater? he almost qualifies lrao. if you whispered 'mr. rogers', that would get the bingo.

you didn't err here lrao. i'd rather watch a half-hour episode of 'the alan greenspan show' than i would waiting around for signs of life from this blind. if this SB was going to raise you, it would have been a quarter of a percent at a time.

no pens, no bounce,.....no slow-play. you did fine.

on the river lrao, should you bet? ybysa you should.

Re: Don\'t know how to classify this hand (bad bead, major suck out, ???)
 

Does it really matter how you classify it?

In your opinion did you play this hand well on every street? Hint consider carefully your pre-flop action.

elysium has some good advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
the reason to slow a little in this spot is because not only might the SB fold hands that cannot improve over yours, but if there is some chance that he is checking to check-raise, a raise of the aggressive might not only discourage his check-raise, but he may also check-call instead of betting out on the expensive round.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good point.