Preflop raising thoughts and concerns
 

I wanted to talk with some of you about preflop raising in LIMIT O8B.

I know we're all raising with the obvious hands PF like AA23 and hands of the sort i.e, AA2x AA3x AKK2, but recently i questioned a play i made and thought better of it and tried to employ it in this hand.



the game was loose/aggressive as usual, and I found myself with a very loose image at the table holding AA 2 5 sooted. I limped UTG and re-raised when it came back to me. PF ends up getting capped.

I started to think that in a lot of O8B games it becomes correct strategy to limp with the hopes of re-raising with big hands, and also for the fact that a lot of hands that are monster starters just play well multi-way.

So, i've switched to a limp/re-raise with big hands in EP.

Secondly, I've also been playing suited connector hands very aggressivly PF. Hands that aren't two way hands I might add. Specifically hands like AKQJ KQJ10 QQJ10 so on and so forth. Does anyone have anything in their database about playing these hands in this fashion PF?



There's one hand I'd like comments on here, as well.


It's just the flop i'm concerned with in this hand.


I'm button with A 2 4 6 nut spades.

5 players to a flop of

3x 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Kx

It's bet by the SB, BB raises, all call and it comes back to me and I 3-bet.

Does anyone like a call here and why?



Tex

Re: Preflop raising thoughts and concerns
 

depends on how SB/BB react to aggression. if you call, there is a good chance you can get double bets on turn. but you are almost certain to get 1 add'l small bet now and tie them to the pot when you have a strong hand. Could possibly even get free card if you miss. So i'd probably prefer 3-bet on balance.

Re: Preflop raising thoughts and concerns
 

Re,the hand you mentioned:When you consider waiting for the turn to raise,you are taking a risk that things will go as planned.In other words,you are hoping the turn card will be at least reasonable & maybe even great.BB will lead out,everybody will call,& then you raise, trapping everybody in for 2 big bets,& making a ton of money.
The problem,as I see it,is that it looks like BB has a different goal from you & will not co-operate.Since he raised in a shut-out position,trying to narrow the field apparently,he may have something like a set.He didn't like it when everybody called,presumably.Now,on the turn,when your card comes,an A,2,4,6,7 &/or a spade,he will likely check to the field instead of obligingly betting out for you.
I think it's best to 3-bet the flop like you did.

Re: Preflop raising thoughts and concerns
 

1st Question: Slow playing before the flop in limit O8 is not recommended, unless you're 1st or 2nd to act in a tight game and won't get any callers if you raise in E.P.. You want to get the money in early on low hands. There is no guarantee you will make a high or not get 1/4'rd, even 6th'd. To prevent a loss in a big hand you need to get the money in early to cover those potential losses in the later (and bigger) betting rounds.
2nd Question: 3 bet this flop with your hand everytime, no questions! e.g. - see description above.

Re: Preflop raising thoughts and concerns
 

I've got to agree with the three bet idea. That "6" could end up being the perfect card to pick up 3/4 of this pot if/when another low card comes.

I don't think I would wait for the turn.

Dave

Re: Preflop raising thoughts and concerns
 

I think I need to get Poker Tracker - Omaha version.

[ QUOTE ]

the game was loose/aggressive as usual, and I found myself with a very loose image at the table holding AA 2 5 sooted. I limped UTG and re-raised when it came back to me. PF ends up getting capped.

I started to think that in a lot of O8B games it becomes correct strategy to limp with the hopes of re-raising with big hands, and also for the fact that a lot of hands that are monster starters just play well multi-way.

So, i've switched to a limp/re-raise with big hands in EP.


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If you're in a loose/agressive game like you said, I like it. If it's a loose/passive game, you might as well raise it yourself. They'll call anyways.

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Secondly, I've also been playing suited connector hands very aggressivly PF. Hands that aren't two way hands I might add. Specifically hands like AKQJ KQJ10 QQJ10 so on and so forth. Does anyone have anything in their database about playing these hands in this fashion PF?



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I think it's OK with hands like AKQJ, but not hands like 789T simply because the AKQJ still has potential to scoop. 789T won't make the nut straight without there being a low on the board. I'm generally a bit weak, so I like to see flops cheap, but if you're in LP and believe that other limpers have mostly low cards, I think you can raise it up pre-flop if you can get away from a low flop.

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There's one hand I'd like comments on here, as well.

It's just the flop i'm concerned with in this hand.
I'm button with A 2 4 6 nut spades.

5 players to a flop of

3x 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Kx

It's bet by the SB, BB raises, all call and it comes back to me and I 3-bet.

Does anyone like a call here and why?

Tex

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's a good raise. You have nut uncounterfeitable low draw, plus a nice wrappish draw I think (Any A, 2, or 4 makes a wheel, any 7 gives you nut straight, a 6 has you beaten only by 47xx). Plus backdoor nut flush draw. This is a good value raise since everyone else is coming along for the ride. Sucks if you miss all your draws (like I seem to do), but otherwise I think it's a good play.

Re: Preflop raising thoughts and concerns
 

[ QUOTE ]
1st Question: Slow playing before the flop in limit O8 is not recommended, unless you're 1st or 2nd to act in a tight game and won't get any callers if you raise in E.P.. You want to get the money in early on low hands. There is no guarantee you will make a high or not get 1/4'rd, even 6th'd. To prevent a loss in a big hand you need to get the money in early to cover those potential losses in the later (and bigger) betting rounds.

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I think this is bad advice and doesn't make sense. How does getting your money in early prevent a later loss?

With low oriented (esp suited) ABC hands, you want to play a volume pot against multiple opponents. You should just tailor your raising strategy to fit this goal. If the table is playing tight against raises, limp from EP and maybe toss in a backraise if it will swell the pot and not shut too many people out. If the table is really loose and squirrelly, raise from EP if it won't deter any callers.

Re: Preflop raising thoughts and concerns
 

I three-bet this one for sure. For one thing, the field already called 2 bets cold, even if one of the other aggressors caps it, everyone will probably call. You will also build a huge pot and tie a lot of people to hands that you want calling you down (inferior lows, two pair, etc). Waiting to raise the turn at O8 is too risky. Hand values can change so drastically from round to round, you can't really count on somebody firing the turn in a multiway pot like you can in holdem.

Re: Preflop raising thoughts and concerns
 

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I know we're all raising with the obvious hands PF like AA23 and hands of the sort i.e, AA2x AA3x AKK2, but recently i questioned a play i made and thought better of it and tried to employ it in this hand.

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Tex - Not quite all of us. I sometimes raise with those hands and somtimes limp with them.

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I started to think that in a lot of O8B games it becomes correct strategy to limp with the hopes of re-raising with big hands, and also for the fact that a lot of hands that are monster starters just play well multi-way.

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I think they almost all play better multi-way.

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So, i've switched to a limp/re-raise with big hands in EP.

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That's often the way I'll play those hands (probably not for the same reason as you).

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I'm button with A 2 4 6 nut spades.
5 players to a flop of
3x 5s Kx
It's bet by the SB, BB raises, all call and it comes back to me and I 3-bet.

Does anyone like a call here and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like your three bet here.

But I can understand a call. If you think by three-betting everybody will check to you on the turn when the turn is favorable to you, so that you can only get one double bet out of everybody on the turn instead of two double bets, a call makes some sense.

And if the turn is unfavorable to you (eg. pairs the board), then you save a bet by just calling.

Seems a toss-up to me.

Buzz