Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

A chip runner at a Los Angeles area casino inadvertantly gave me an extra $100 last night when coloring up my chips. I didn't say anything -- I just kept the money.

Does anyone know what sort of accounting procedures they have for chip runners? Will this guy end up $100 short at the end of his shift, or something?

I seem to remember a thread on this forum where a guy said he had to pay back a casino for some mistake they made giving change or some such thing.

And of course feel free to comment on my principles. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Sparks

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

You have principles?

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

Uhhh... well... you could always just tell the chip-runner they were $100 heavy?

That way you can go to sleep at night and so on and so forth.

My guess is someone's paying for that $100. And it's probably not the shareholders of the Commerce Casino.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

the chip runner will most definetly pay the $100 out of his pocket. its probably a college kid trying to make enough money to eat something other than top ramen. but if you're lucky, maybe it was a woman with 3 kids working her second job at night. hopefully, her husband drinks his paycheck every night and beats her regularly and the only way her kids eat between their beatings is if she brings home 2 paychecks. but that's only wishful thinking. now, if i were to have met you that night, and you would have told me that, i would have collapsed your eye socket. maybe both.

as a sidebar, you are a piece of sh.it. you should strongly consider suicide.

-jihad

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
as a sidebar, you are a piece of sh.it. you should strongly consider suicide.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I'm interested in is if anyone knows of a specific accounting procedure the chip runners have. There was a new game starting, the runner brought over like 10 racks of checks to sell to every one.

Legally, I doubt the chip runner would have to pay back an underage. I think he'd have a legitimate complaint against the casino if they made him pay. Accidental errors are just a cost of doing business in a casino, IMO.

And don't feel TOO bad for the house. They only drop (including asian games) about $250,000... a day.

Sparks

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

I've had this happen to me on a few occassions cashing out racks of chips. My feeling is that the cashier will likely either have to make up the cash or be fired if the drawer is off...these totals are closely accounted for. I feel like she needs her job more than I need $100 THAT DOESN'T BELONG TO ME. I think keeping the money here is wrong and I would never do it. Same thing if a bank teller gives me extra. You know it's wrong and you take it...that's theft in my mind.

Jeff

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
she needs her job more than I need $100 THAT DOESN'T BELONG TO ME...that's theft in my mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
Legally, I doubt the chip runner would have to pay back an underage. I think he'd have a legitimate complaint against the casino if they made him pay. Accidental errors are just a cost of doing business in a casino, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you're right, all they can legally do is fire the chip runner (unless he pays back the $100). Maybe they'll short his last check (legally or not) and let him sue for it.

At best, it's a black mark against this person's record, but hey, you got $100, so what do you care?

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
Legally, I doubt the chip runner would have to pay back an underage. I think he'd have a legitimate complaint against the casino if they made him pay

[/ QUOTE ]

so you simultaneously lack fundamental moral principles and the intelligence to logically deduce that if the casino did not make him pay, it would be extremely easy for ANY person in ANY casino with the same policy to set up a pretty serious theft ring with friends? you live in LA...lemme guess, you think bush and arnold are both crooks looking to skrew over the common man? i can tell you for an absolute fact, you straight up STOLE $100 from the runner. people like you need to be deported.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

you are a punk. that is all.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
you live in LA...lemme guess, you think bush and arnold are both crooks looking to skrew over the common man? i can tell you for an absolute fact, you straight up STOLE $100 from the runner. people like you need to be deported.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sparks [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
you are a punk. that is all.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not really the word you want to use, is it? I mean, "punk" just doesn't work here, IMO. You should try again.

Sparks

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
And don't feel TOO bad for the house. They only drop (including asian games) about $250,000... a day

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see a single post citing sympathy for the house as grounds for doing the right thing. (If you pressed me, I'd have to say that even stealing from the rich is stealing, but that's beside the point.)

Do you just not believe that the chip-runner will be called to account? Do you think the house literally doesn't notice a missing $100 chip?

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]

And of course feel free to comment on my principles

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? They obviously aren't important to you.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

Sparks, I don't blame you ... I would have walked out with it to... and I really think alot of these guys trying to jump on your case about it , would have as well. This "chip runner" works in a job that requires perfection because money (lots) is at stake... If this goober didn't hand count the bills/chips out in front of you (and every customer) then it's his fault, and paying back the $100 would be a small price to pay for f'n up .. What if he would have been coloring up a 2000-4000 player? Giving him money? Same mistake could have cost thousands... Oh.. and everyone will say , well it was accident, etc... well in that kind of job you can't afford accidents..

What if this "chip runner" were a parachute rigger? What would his little mistake cost then?

I have morals, and I don't care if a bunch of morons on the internet tell me I do or do not...

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have morals, and I don't care if a bunch of morons on the internet tell me I do or do not...

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't go around giving gratuitous moral advice, because frankly I have enough of my own issues to deal with. But if you invite comment on the topic, expect to get it.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

So basically, you are feeling guilty and are hoping that we can make you feel better.

Rates start at $100 an hour. Please cancel all appointments with at least 24 hours notice.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
well in that kind of job you can't afford accidents..

[/ QUOTE ]

Good thing we require a chiprunner MBA

[ QUOTE ]
What if this "chip runner" were a parachute rigger? What would his little mistake cost then?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice comparison, idiot

[ QUOTE ]
I have morals, and I don't care if a bunch of morons on the internet tell me I do or do not...

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course you do- they're just not ethical. Obviously your lower-level ones can use some work. Or you need to reacquaint yourself with the dictionary to find out what those words really mean.

AIM

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

punk is an alternate spelling for troll.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

probably the cashiere that made the mistake and yes it will come out of her check or she will be let go.

This has happened to me when I cashed out and I brought it to their attention.The cashier recounted and said it was okay . I brought the supervisor over to recount because I knew she was overpaying me. I didn't believe me It's all about right and wrong and karma.

As for your principle's cant comment on what does not exist.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
STOLE $100 from the runner. people like you need to be deported.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nh Sir

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

Why will the runner get in trouble? The problem is with the cashier, who will be short.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

Several points:

1. Yes SOMEONE was accountable for that money. This is a casino and they keep track of every dime, otherwise theft would be rampant (and there is probably already plenty).

If the runner didn't have to pay for it then his/her supervisor did or the pokre room manager or someone, the buck stopped somewhere.

2. Was this "morally" wrong? Yes. It's a common scenario though. Say the teller at the bank gives you an extra $20, the guy at the gas station gives you change for a $20 when you handed him a $10, etc. The question becomes "Are you under a moral obligation to point out an error someone made that is favorable to you and costly to them, even though you did not actively participate in said error." Most people in our society say yes.

3. There are ALOT of hypocrites on this thread. While many would have pointed out the error, many who say they would have in actuallity would NOT have.

4. The really callous would argue that the chip runner KNOWS he's accountable for over-changing and thus if he makes the mistake he deserves to pay it. The casinos make them accountable to provide movitation to NOT make mistakes.

5. $100 means different things to differnet people. To the chip runner making a low hourly wage it probably meant alot. To a player playing 10/20 hold em it probably means very little, something to keep in mind.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

I was picking up my share of a tourney chop a couple of weeks ago. My share was $670. The TD counted out $770. I pointed out the error and took the correct amount. I really can't imagine doing it any other way.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you are a punk. that is all.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not really the word you want to use, is it? I mean, "punk" just doesn't work here, IMO. You should try again.

Sparks

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think he just momentarily forgot how to spell "fucktard"

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
So basically, you are feeling guilty and are hoping that we can make you feel better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhhh, no.

Sparks

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

This would be a bad time to repeat the story about the extra $500 Bay 101 gave me once huh? Fuck 'em... that's my take.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

I made the original post because I thought it was an interesting thing that happened in a B&M. I was curious if anyone - such as a casino employee, chip runner, etc. -- might actually know something about the accounting procedures for chip runners on the floor of a casino. I certainly was not looking for approval, or validation, or whatever, about my decision to keep the money. But, in light of the enthusiastic, albeit childish, admonitions against me, I might as well comment on my thought process when I realized I was over-changed a hundred dollars. I considered the following, all in the span of about 20 seconds:

First, I was in a casino, a business which flat out takes advantage of certain people's weakness for gambling. Without a doubt, countless lives have been ruined, or at least severely affected by the casino's business model, which combined with addictive gambling personalities, costs many people hundreds, if not thousands of dollars, monthly. In almost any other venue I can think of (bank, retail, etc.) I would not have kept the money. I wasn’t in church, I wasn’t at the grocery store, and I wasn’t at the ball park. I was in a casino.

Second, there is a certain sense of “getting the best of it” when in a casino. It’s a dog-eat-dog, survival of the fittest environment. I don’t take angle shots when playing cards, and if some old guy is exposing his cards to me, I’ll tell him. But in general, I want to get the best of it when I’m in a casino.

Third, the casino is a friggin’ cash cow. The financial numbers of most casinos, and certainly the one I was in, are basically staggering. As I mentioned, it’s close to a quarter million dollars top line, every day, 365 days a year. Of course the question is, does the hundred come out of the casino’s pocket, or the chip runner’s. It’s an important question, yet to be thoroughly covered. And I suspect that any lawyer worth his salt could crush a casino which tried to fire an employee for an error like this. Now, if it’s the third time it’s happened in a month, then the guy should be fired, as he is incompetent.

Fourth, I don’t happen to like the chip runner that over-changed me. He’s smug, unfriendly, and rude. The other runners that I see most often are friendly and affable.

Lastly, it was not an irrevocable thing. I could, and who knows, still may, return the money. If I were to hear some half-way cogent argument as to why I should, it might actually make a difference. And I mean that. So far, I haven’t seen a thing, although UAT made a decent effort. Saying I “stole” the money is meaningless hyperbole.

I must confess though that I must have been feeling a little guilty, because before I left, many hours later, I greased the floorman $100, as I had a big night. He’s a totally cool guy, and it’s been a while since I toked him. That, felt great.

Sparks

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

So stealing from the rich isn't stealing, because they make money?

And since the casino business is degenerate and you are clearly a moral paragon, you're entitled to take whatever you can get from them, even if it is wrong? Never mind that YOU intend to get your own slice from the degenerate gamblers, making yourself into a mini-casino.

Also, since you didn't like the chip runner, he deserved it too.

You had four different rationalizations in 20 seconds. Nice to see how adults do things, as opposed to the childish people deriding your decision.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In Antwort auf:</font><hr />
I considered the following, all in the span of about 20 seconds:

Wow, a hundred bucks. I think I'll steal it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fixed your post.

Martin

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

Okay... I play poker. I knowingly take people's hard earned money that they may or may not need to feed their families, pay the mortages, cars, utilities, etc. This is how I make a living. It is my chosen career path and I in no way try to pretend that it's noble or that I may not be screwing the little guy. Frankly, I don't care. I'm cold-hearted and it's his own damn problem, not mine.

If I clearly have no problem taking money off of people who have a gambling problem, I certainly have no problem taking advantage of the casino being a bunch of idiots and giving me an extra $500.

You can argue my morals to death, but my beliefs are mine. I just find it hypocritical when anyone who plays poker for a living pretends to be some sort of noble, upstanding citizen who would never engage in any shading dealings. Clearly, you'd have to be lying to yourself to say this.

I don't know where I was going with this, but at least my stance should be clear. That's all I have.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
Okay... I play poker. I knowingly take people's hard earned money that they may or may not need to feed their families, pay the mortages, cars, utilities, etc. This is how I make a living. It is my chosen career path and I in no way try to pretend that it's noble or that I may not be screwing the little guy. Frankly, I don't care. I'm cold-hearted and it's his own damn problem, not mine.

If I clearly have no problem taking money off of people who have a gambling problem, I certainly have no problem taking advantage of the casino being a bunch of idiots and giving me an extra $500.

You can argue my morals to death, but my beliefs are mine. I just find it hypocritical when anyone who plays poker for a living pretends to be some sort of noble, upstanding citizen who would never engage in any shading dealings. Clearly, you'd have to be lying to yourself to say this.

I don't know where I was going with this, but at least my stance should be clear. That's all I have.

[/ QUOTE ]

In poker, people have made a conscious choice to play against you... whether they are taking the worst of it or not is irrelevant.

A chip runner giving you too much money is a procedural, accounting error by someone conducting business.

I hope you and the OP realize that it's possible to have both the libertarian outlook (that I feel is necessary) to be successful at poker and at the same time, have a conscience.

Granted, this is becoming more clear to me at 25 than in was when I was the age of most posters, but it'll come; you'll get it someday.

Dan

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

Congratulations on fitting in with the rest of the low life degenerates that frequent the Commerce.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In Antwort auf:</font><hr />
I just find it hypocritical when anyone who plays poker for a living pretends to be some sort of noble, upstanding citizen who would never engage in any shading dealings. Clearly, you'd have to be lying to yourself to say this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see where it would make you feel better to convince yourself that "everyone else would do it too", but I can assure you that's not the case.

Please just accept this as a matter in which you have room for improvement, just like you would do if evidence showed you like Q9s too much in the cutoff.

Martin

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

Har! Poker players lecturing on morals. This whole thread makes me laugh.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
Har! Poker players lecturing on morals. This whole thread makes me laugh.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. And I'm not saying everyone else would do it; frankly, I don't give a damn what anyone else would do in the situation. I'm saying I have no problem with the cashier giving me an extra "whatever" and keeping it. I have no desire to fit into anyone elses morals or ideals and I really don't care for or want anyone's approval.

I have many values that many people probably wouldn't agree with. Taking the free money a business accidentally gave me is not even near the worst of them.

And if you think that the people are conciously choosing to play poker as if they aren't totally addicted to gambling, you are again completely fooling yourself.

If dealing drugs was quasi-legal (just like online poker), I would do it in a heartbeat. I find playing poker for a living to be quite similiar. I can extrapolate if anyone cares me to.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
Granted, this is becoming more clear to me at 25 than in was when I was the age of most posters, but it'll come; you'll get it someday.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll try to avoid flaming you, but this condescending crap that people spew off on those they consider not as "good" as they are is complete BS.

Good god, you are 25 and I'm only 21. Please let me bow down before your infinite wisdom.... get real.

While I consider myself wiser as I've grown older I will hopefully never feel the need to preach to anybody, especially youth. Let people make their own mistakes, let their views change to whatever THEY feel is right as they get older, but please don't try to make yourself feel any better than anyone else by telling someone what to do. Frankly, nobody wants to hear it.

If more people took a more lassiez faire approach to life and just let everyone be, I feel we'd all be much better off. This is why I hate getting into these stupid moral arguments, especially on a message board. Why I am defending myself, I do not understand.

In fact, I've done such a good job of convincing myself, that I'm done posting to this thread.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Granted, this is becoming more clear to me at 25 than in was when I was the age of most posters, but it'll come; you'll get it someday.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll try to avoid flaming you, but this condescending crap that people spew off on those they consider not as "good" as they are is complete BS.

Good god, you are 25 and I'm only 21. Please let me bow down before your infinite wisdom.... get real.

While I consider myself wiser as I've grown older I will hopefully never feel the need to preach to anybody, especially youth. Let people make their own mistakes, let their views change to whatever THEY feel is right as they get older, but please don't try to make yourself feel any better than anyone else by telling someone what to do. Frankly, nobody wants to hear it.

If more people took a more lassiez faire approach to life and just let everyone be, I feel we'd all be much better off. This is why I hate getting into these stupid moral arguments, especially on a message board. Why I am defending myself, I do not understand.

In fact, I've done such a good job of convincing myself, that I'm done posting to this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I wasn't attempting to be condescending or make it seems as if I have ages on you. I was just trying to say that I used to think more like you (as in "[censored] it, poker's predatory, so who [censored] cares what I do in a poker room." Changing my mindset from being purely predatory has done leaps and bounds for my game.

Again, I wasn't trying to belittle you, and I appreciate you not flaming me. I just thought that you were comparing two things that were not quite apples and oranges, but different.

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

sparks, i hope you learned your lesson

steal bikes instead

Re: Chip Runner Lays Odds
 

DanS,

I said I'd stay out, but since you gave a reasonable response, I just wanted to thank you for that. I believe we simply disagree here and I think I may have come off a little hard with the semi-flaming.

I'm just very libertarian and don't believe that anyone really has a place to be criticizing anyone else's morals. That's why things like this get to me. He didn't break the law, so everyone should get off his case.

Preaching to people REALLY doesn't get you (the general you) anywhere. People just do not listen. And frankly, what does it matter to your life if the OP got an extra $100 from a chip runner. I hardly think it affects you (and don't anyone dare try to give me some long drawn out BS scenario where the 'now homeless chip runner breaks into your house and kills your family when they try to fight back after he robs the place' type of thing).

Leave the guy alone. Please.


I don't go into your church and scream bloody murder that the notion of god is just an elaborate hoax designed to control people and their rather meaningless lives. Don't come into my card room and tell me to give the cashier his money back.