2/4 KTs
 

I locked the Royal Flush Flop thread because the only interesting discussion that can come out of it is concerning the following.

Assume readless.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

i raise this every time...and thought it was quite standard...

high card value, suited broadway, multiway pot, hopefully buy the button (and if not its not terrible)...two limpers that considering its party 2/4 probably aren't good...

im interested in reasons not to raise here...

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

Raise it up.

About the only possibility I can see where I am not raising is if its one of those tables you sometimes get where the monkey's love to limp but freeze up when it comes to coldcalling.

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

I limp, because other players seem to limp and/or raise so many hands it's dominated by. But I don't have too much conviction.

Nice save, other thread belonged in BBV.

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
i raise this every time...and thought it was quite standard...

high card value, suited broadway, multiway pot, hopefully buy the button (and if not its not terrible)...two limpers that considering its party 2/4 probably aren't good...

im interested in reasons not to raise here...

[/ QUOTE ]
I first thought it was 10-handed and in that case I think this is a call and not very close to a raise.

Now that's it's 8-handed the chance to buy the button goes up considerably. Still there are 5 players left to act and the risk of getting 3-betted or called by a hand that domintes us are relatively high. Even the players that already limped in might dominate us, but I think the idea of raising here is based on that the limpers are pretty loose, not likely to be dominating us.

So our hands is vulnerable for domination, it plays well multiway, but we're not in that good position. I can see nothing wrong in trying to induce a multiway pot by calling, but I agree this is the boarderline for where a raise will become correct, one position later I'll probably raise.

EDIT: Of course this is also depending on what kind of players are left to act...

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

Easy raise if you have cold-calling machines behind you, or if the table is tight enough to let you buy the button or know you are in trouble if tight players come in behind you.

Overlimping is not bad if you might get a couple of fishy limpers behind you, but I really don't like playing a hand like KT in early position when I could end up playing against EITHER a dominating hand, OR a total crap hand that may get in for cheap and beat my TP when they connect.

Since I am not folding KTs in this spot, I think I'm raising but playing somewhat cautious post-flop with 1-pair and players behind me.

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i raise this every time...and thought it was quite standard...

high card value, suited broadway, multiway pot, hopefully buy the button (and if not its not terrible)...two limpers that considering its party 2/4 probably aren't good...

im interested in reasons not to raise here...

[/ QUOTE ]
I first thought it was 10-handed and in that case I think this is a call and not very close to a raise.

Now that's it's 8-handed the chance to buy the button goes up considerably. Still there are 5 players left to act and the risk of getting 3-betted or called by a hand that domintes us are relatively high. Even the players that already limped in might dominate us, but I think the idea of raising here is based on that the limpers are pretty loose, not likely to be dominating us.

So our hands is vulnerable for domination, it plays well multiway, but we're not in that good position. I can see nothing wrong in trying to induce a multiway pot by calling, but I agree this is the boarderline for where a raise will become correct, one position later I'll probably raise.

EDIT: Of course this is also depending on what kind of players are left to act...

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said (the second quote that is).

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

So much of this depends on who your opponents are.

1. If the limpers are tight, I don't like raising because I may be dominated and want multiway action.

2. If the players behind me are loose and might call with worse hands, I like raising more.

3. If the players behind me are super tight and I can always buy the button, that might be a reason to raise.

4. If the players behind me are normal and will often limp with worse hands but generally only play better/equivalent hands if I raise, I like limping.


If there were one more limper in front of me I'd like raising more. If I were in MP3 or CO, I also like raising more, as I'm more likely to buy the button and less likely to have a dominating hand behind me.

In MP1, though, against standard players, I think usually I like a limp here.

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

I think I raise this at 2/4 most of the time.

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

I raise this at 5/10 >50% of the time. On a theoretical level, I can see some reasons not to raise on 2/4:

-The limpers are far less likely to declare their hands/fold a better non-paired hand, even if you raise.
-It is more likely that one of the EP players limped in with a hand that has you dominated (KQ/KJ).
-You are less likely to buy the button by representing a big hand (i.e., one good enough to raise 2 limpers with).
-The raise is relatively less likely to get a player behind you to fold a weak/medium ace.
-It is less likely to be raised behind you when you limp behind.

On the flip side, I think it is more likely that you'll be coldcalled by a hand you dominate (i.e., QT/JT), and more likely that you'll be paid off when YHIG postflop.

FWIW, I tend to think that the potential negatives outweigh the potential positives here, at least when Hero is MP1 (whole different story if we're the CO or button). So I like limping behind & hoping for more limpers.

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
I locked the Royal Flush Flop thread because the only interesting discussion that can come out of it is concerning the following.

Assume readless.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls

[/ QUOTE ]

I call.

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
I raise this at 5/10 >50% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not seeing many hands where UTG and UTG+1 limp at the Party 5/10 Full. Given the tighter nature of that game, I would be more inclined to limp in the 5/10 as I would be more wary of being dominated by one of the limpers in front.

Quite true, however, that raising is more likely to see you buy the button and have position post-flop.

Since I am mucking the KTo in this spot (2/4 or 5/10), I think I'm only raising here (5/10) if I am pretty sure the pot will be 3-way and my opponents are the type to give up easily post-flop or tell me right away they like their hand.

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

there are potentially dominating hands in front, but what about folding out dominating hands behind you?

just an additional something to think about

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not seeing many hands where UTG and UTG+1 limp at the Party 5/10 Full. Given the tighter nature of that game, I would be more inclined to limp in the 5/10 as I would be more wary of being dominated by one of the limpers in front.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've actually found this less likely to be true--at 5/10 & what hands I've played above, the average player is easily aggressive enough to raise or fold with KQ/KJ from EP. Generally when two players limp like that, it's either a case of both being loose players, or the first being loose & the second trying to get in cheap with a suited connector or small pocket pair.

When I was playing 2/4 & lower stakes, though, I would routinely see passive opponents limp from EP with hands like KJ or KQ...even AK from time to time.

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

[ QUOTE ]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K, T.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls



[/ QUOTE ]

I think your play here depends on both how the rest of the table is playing, but also your ability to play post-flop well. I think a limp here is better than a raise if we play decently post flop. Raising is going to bloat a pot where half the field has yet to act, and after the flop we may or may not have absolute position over the remaining field.

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

This is the easiest PF raise ever.

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is the easiest PF raise ever.

[/ QUOTE ]
Despite of your strong arguments I still like to limp.

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

This is the easiest PF raise ever because:

We have a good hand
We have position
We have morons open limping and overlimping before us
We dont' really care if people coldcall or not, we have high card value AND flush/draw value.
We like our hand.

This is the easiest PF raise ever.

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
We dont' really care if people coldcall or not, we have high card value AND flush/draw value.


[/ QUOTE ]
We'll be dominated a lot when players coldcall and we lose position, so we do not like getting coldcalled. At these limits coldcalling with KQ/KJ/AT/Axs is more common than in higher limits. As you say our hands play well multiway, let's limp and get calers with Kxs/QT aswell, i think raising would limit the remaining players to play mostly hands that holds us in bad shape, but fold hands we like getting called by.

I think raising would be +EV but calling more +EV.

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

Well be dominated? WTF are you talking about? People have called not raied, they don't have KJ KQ AK. They don't have us dominated. We can't be scared of people who haven't acted yet, or people who MIGHT coldcall. Raising is awesome because it either get us position with a good high card hand, or builds us a large multiway pot witha good multiway pot hand. If people coldcall behind us our K might not be good but our T is awesome and our spades kick ass. Besides, if we coldcall then we let retard A4 hands or some [censored] in and potentially cost us the pot. Seriosuly folding here sucks but calling here is way way worse than raising. IMO NOT raising here is a large mistake.

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well be dominated? WTF are you talking about? People have called not raied, they don't have KJ KQ AK.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, if the limpers are loose we shouldn't worry too much of the limpers, but there are certainly many players at 2/4 that will limp these hands fom EP.

[ QUOTE ]
We can't be scared of people who haven't acted yet, or people who MIGHT coldcall.

[/ QUOTE ]
There's a ~26% chance someone behind holds AA-TT/AK/KQ-KJ/AT. I don't expect these to fold to a raise, often we'll get 3-betted. And there's an additional ~12% chance somebody
holds AQ/AJ. I think there's too many players left to act to raise.

[ QUOTE ]
If people coldcall behind us our K might not be good but our T is awesome and our spades kick ass.

[/ QUOTE ]
Raise and getting cold cold by AK/KQ/KJ/AT kicks ass? It kicks your ass my friend.

[ QUOTE ]
Besides, if we coldcall then we let retard A4 hands or some [censored] in and potentially cost us the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're telling me you fear someone limping in with this crap? We have a great multiway hand and they don't, we like [censored] like A4 limping when we're getting us a very multiway hand. We LOVE players limping with crap! Why wouldn't we like players with poor equity to limp?

[ QUOTE ]
Seriosuly folding here sucks but calling here is way way worse than raising. IMO NOT raising here is a large mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]
This decision is close, saying otherwise is silly imo.

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
We can't be scared of people who haven't acted yet, or people who MIGHT coldcall.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, so you don't play position? You don't change your raising standards when everybody has fold to you in MP3? I think you do and the reason is that there's less players left to act...

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seriosuly folding here sucks but calling here is way way worse than raising. IMO NOT raising here is a large mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can this possibly be true? You're raising K9s here? And 100% of the time?

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

I am. how the hell can you not raise here? K9s is a raise. Good god how can it not be. K9s is a raise. KTs is a raise, You just ahve way way too much hand to not be raising here.

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

also - nick royale - A4o is NOT crap(as far as we're concerned). We're behiind A4o as it stands and folding that hand helps us.

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
also - nick royale - A4o is NOT crap(as far as we're concerned). We're behiind A4o as it stands and folding that hand helps us.

[/ QUOTE ]
In the multiway pot I was talking about A4o is crap and total garbage. I can agree we don't want an A against us if we're planning to get it shorthanded like you though. I can also agree that we would prefer not having an ace against us in a multiway pot as well, but that's not such a big concern as you seem to want to make it, and if it's along with a 4 kicker unsuited it's even less a concern. A4o will have a very low equity in a multiway pot.

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

No. There is a big difference between heads up and multiway. A4o is ahead of us heads up, but multiway it's real Crap. Run some sims in pokerstove and you'll see. We want it to limp because it doesn't have an equity edge in this spot, but we do.

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am. how the hell can you not raise here? K9s is a raise. Good god how can it not be. K9s is a raise. KTs is a raise, You just ahve way way too much hand to not be raising here.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with and everything else goofball has said in this thread.

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

This is just a ton of back & forth about a decision that can't possibily be worth that much in overall EV. Is this whole post a PF call/raise decision, or is there a hand coming?

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is just a ton of back & forth about a decision that can't possibily be worth that much in overall EV. Is this whole post a PF call/raise decision, or is there a hand coming?

[/ QUOTE ]
From the beginning this was a "I flopped a roayle flush, could I have extracted more from it"-thread, but jason re-posted the only interesting part of it. So no, there's nothing more coming. But according to some there's a huge differance in EV between raising and calling, I agree with you, it's only very slim.

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is just a ton of back & forth about a decision that can't possibily be worth that much in overall EV. Is this whole post a PF call/raise decision, or is there a hand coming?

[/ QUOTE ]
From the beginning this was a "I flopped a roayle flush, could I have extracted more from it"-thread, but jason re-posted the only interesting part of it. So no, there's nothing more coming. But according to some there's a huge differance in EV between raising and calling, I agree with you, it's only very slim.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, thank you & my apologies. I didn't see that original thread, but re-reading the top, now I see that I missed it.

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

I call most of the time. Raising would require a reason to raise based on the seats involved.

- Jim

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

MP1 is too early for me to consider raising here routinely. Too much can happen behind and I want encourage a nice big multiway pot to splash around in.

- Jim

Re: 2/4 KTs
 

readless at 2/4 id say this is a standard raise

For those of you who say raise...
 

I understand your reasonings behind raising and I don't need you to repeat them. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

SSH says that we should be limping KTs in MP in a tight game (note that everything on Party qualifies as a tight game under SSH's qualifications). You are saying that Miller et al are simply wrong or am I missing something here?

Edit: Just noticed that it's an 8 person game... does it change anything if the table is full?