Strategy question on getting deep
 

The last three nights in a row, I've busted out of the Stars $3 and $5 rebuy guaranteed tourneys about mid-way through the third hour. The scenario was very similar in all situations.

For example tonight:
Avg stack 19,000. My stack 16,000. Read on me is TAG.
Villain (25,000)is LAGish, always putting in an open raise with any two. I'm BB with 99.
Action is fold to villain who puts in automatic 3x raise. Folds to me, I re-raise him all in. He calls and turns over a KJ off and rivers something like a str8 or whatever.

Now my purpose is not to moan about a lost race, but the question is, am I being too aggressive here? Should I wait for a better position and if so what is it? With an average stack size, is it best to just steal the blinds with the standard open raise from LP and then wait for a monster? I've been watching several of the "good" players make moves like my 99 all in, but it never seems to work out for me?

Any thoughts?

Re: Strategy question on getting deep
 

your edge on small pairs is greater (against two overcards) if you see three cards and make him fold on a missed flop or call your bet with overs, than if you see all five cards. Which is why you'd want to be all-in preflop with a hand like AK against a small pair.

So in spots like that I'd like to call and then bet any flop. Or reraise (not all in) and then bet any flop.
Of course you are really dependent on a stack size (if you don't have enough play left with the blinds size) or if you think your opponent has something like A7 when you have TT, in a situation like that you want to be all in preflop.

So is it a bad play- No and you probably do need to win some coinflips in order to win a tournament. But there are other options that are better.


.joseph.

Re: Strategy question on getting deep
 

It's a fine play. Your 99 is almost certainly the best hand. Push your advantages.

Re: Strategy question on getting deep
 

Thanks Joseph.
I like the other options, like reraising but not all in and then betting the flop. A weakness I have tho, is say the flop is Qxx - I bet, he calls. Turn is a T. What's my move? check/fold or fire again? With any two overs, he's got at least a pair or a str8 draw.

Re: Strategy question on getting deep
 

You give stack sizes, but not blind sizes.

Very important info, or else I don't know how I would play the hand.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Strategy question on getting deep
 

you were either born with size or not. there's not much to it other than that. some women don't want it that deep anyway and are more into girth. i guess it depends on your audience/competition

Re: Strategy question on getting deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
You give stack sizes, but not blind sizes.

Very important info, or else I don't know how I would play the hand.

Regards,
Woodguy

[/ QUOTE ]

big blind during 3rd hour:
1st 15 mins: 300/600/50
2nd: 400/800/50
3rd: 600/1200/75
4th: 800/1600/75

Re: Strategy question on getting deep
 

believe it or not 99 is ahead of the range of 'any two'
It's a reraise regardless, either allin or not depending on the size of the blinds.

Re: Strategy question on getting deep
 

Just reading your post.. did you have to push it in? What were the blinds. If you've got enough BB in front of you maybe you can call and see if you get a flop that looks good to you.. or maybe represent a strpnger hand by reraising the minimum. If the blinds are 500-1000 or higher there isn't much else you can do here but push it in or maybe if you were first to act on the flop try to stop and go.

Re: Strategy question on getting deep
 

Not sure of blind sizes (around 300/600 or so here???) and if that's the case I like the popular "call and play some poker" line. If the flop misses his overs, you can take the pot. If the flop is really scary with 2-3 overs on your 99 you can get away easily.

I don't think a push is necessarily a bad play, but I kind of prefer calling and playing the flop better.

Edit: I also think a reraise would be a fine play as well depending on the blinds.

Re: Strategy question on getting deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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You give stack sizes, but not blind sizes.

Very important info, or else I don't know how I would play the hand.

Regards,
Woodguy


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big blind during 3rd hour:
1st 15 mins: 300/600/50
2nd: 400/800/50
3rd: 600/1200/75
4th: 800/1600/75

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry bout that Wood....this particular hand was 600/1200/75

Re: Strategy question on getting deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the blinds are 500-1000 or higher there isn't much else you can do here but push it in or maybe if you were first to act on the flop try to stop and go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blinds were 600/1200 and I did not consider a stop n go but probably should have.

The question however is not so much hand specific as to the level of aggression I tend to display. I'm typically TAGish and have been trying to change gears around this time of the tournament hoping to get a big stack. ie, steal a little more and push the edges, but it seems like I'm failing at every attempt. What is the best inflection point or does it just tend to happen based on the action at the table? I can continue my TAG stance and slide into the money with an average stack, but I'm wanting to go deep and pick up that elusive win.

There was another thread here about the desire to play OUTSTANDING poker as opposed to solid poker. I'm solid. Period. I look at the guys with 50 final tables in 6 mos and wonder, how the heck do they do it? I want to be OUTSTANDING. What am I missing here?

Re: Strategy question on getting deep
 

Yeah, I didn't mean push as in all in. I meant push in the generic sense of "I'm ahead, I am going to be aggressive" type sense.

Re: Strategy question on getting deep
 

[ QUOTE ]

There was another thread here about the desire to play OUTSTANDING poker as opposed to solid poker. I'm solid. Period. I look at the guys with 50 final tables in 6 mos and wonder, how the heck do they do it? I want to be OUTSTANDING. What am I missing here?

[/ QUOTE ]
Solid play works when you have a lot of chips and weak players. Beyond that it'll be guarunteed to get you to the bubble very often and not much more.

Given your stack size I probably push 99. I want to push KTo's, JTo, etc. out of the hand as the pot is a decent size to take down without racing. If Villian is calling off 2/3rds of his stack with KJo here you should be seeing a lot more flops or reraising him more often preflop. If he's picking up more than his fair share of pots, he's playing correctly.

Re: Strategy question on getting deep
 

Ok, given the stack/blind ratio, you have one move, push or fold.

I don't like a SnG here as that move is best used to fold better hands, and if you do it here, you are likely folding worse hands, which you want to call.

Given this:

[ QUOTE ]
Villain (25,000)is LAGish, always putting in an open raise with any two.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm getting my chips in pretty quick PF, as often I'll have him 70/30 (i.e. A8)

I understand being disheartned when a hand you may have made fold with a flop bet rivers you out of tourney, but making the best play will work out over the long haul, and you want to maximize chips here.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Strategy question on getting deep
 

I don't know if i like the push here. Seems that villain's image is loose and a little weak. Not many players will stack you with K-Jo. This is a weakness you need to exploit, and the way to do that is not pushing pre-flop. I like stop&go here. Use this to give your opponent only 3 cards rather than 5...manipulate your small edge into a much larger one. A push screams low PP, but a small re-raise here shows strength, and then the pot is yours on the flop when you bet out.

Re: Strategy question on getting deep
 

Great response as always Wood. I appreciate it.

Re: Strategy question on getting deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if i like the push here. Seems that villain's image is loose and a little weak. Not many players will stack you with K-Jo. This is a weakness you need to exploit, and the way to do that is not pushing pre-flop. I like stop&go here. Use this to give your opponent only 3 cards rather than 5...manipulate your small edge into a much larger one. A push screams low PP, but a small re-raise here shows strength, and then the pot is yours on the flop when you bet out.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is all easy to say now that we know villain had a marginal hand that happened to consist of two overcards and was willing to call a reraise all-in with KJo.
At the time, though, all we can really say is that our nines are almost certainly the best hand. We should push this advantage by all means. Can't help it if villain makes a donkey call that works out.

Re: Strategy question on getting deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not many players will stack you with K-Jo.

[/ QUOTE ]


Ah, but if they are playing the Secret System they will stack you every time!

Re: Strategy question on getting deep
 

if the blinds are 300-600 there is ABSOLUTELY no reason to go broke on this hand regardless of the action.

Re: Strategy question on getting deep
 

i just saw 600-1200

you're stuck

Re: Strategy question on getting deep
 

You have to push. Villain's call is probably OK given his and your style. If you want to win tournaments, you have to work on winning more coin flips.