PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

So after seeing the last peak of my bank roll $6000 and 50K hands ago, I'm beggining to question every part of my game. So I am resolving to post quite a few hands, even ones that may seem rather simple, as I no longer am sure I'm playing winning poker.

Villian is a regular grindier. I have 1k+hands on him at 16/10/2
Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls.

River: (8.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

Thoughts?

Re: PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

I personally treat this as WA/WB type situation. I'm not worried about giving free cards as I am potentially (likely?) already behind to QQ-AA.

Re: PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

I put villians preflop range here as 77-AA, AK, AQ, possible AJs.

Does that change your opinion of WA/WB, as hes not gonna lay down many PP's and allowing me to value bet? Not to mention peeling with AK?

Re: PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
I put villians preflop range here as 77-AA, AK, AQ, possible AJs.

Does that change your opinion of WA/WB, as hes not gonna lay down many PP's and allowing me to value bet? Not to mention peeling with AK?

[/ QUOTE ]

By checking the flop and turn, we have already given him the chance to peel with AK.

So I think the important part is the turn c/r. And it really comes down to if your range of 3-betting hands is accurate, and how often you think he will lay down a hand like 77-JJ to a turn c/r.

So I'm not really sure. I think the turn c/r opens you up to getting 3-bet by AA-QQ and allow him to lay down a worse hand. I think I just call the turn and lead the river if it's not a king. This allows him to call with his 77-JJ hands and I think we're less likely to get 3-bet if he doesn't have QQ.

Re: PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

I just check raise the flop usually. I don't want to find out on the turn I'm behind, and I don't want him taking a free card with a worse hand, and I don't particularly want to knock out middle pocket pairs and AK.

Re: PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
and I don't particularly want to knock out middle pocket pairs and AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Won't a flop c/r do this? AK or PP may fold on the turn.

Re: PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

If you notice the turn paired. This a time many ppl love to bluff CR the turn to put ppl off overs. I think hes peeling with AK folding the river UI, which I want him to do. And calling down with the 77-JJ assuming no A or K on the river. 3 betting AA-QQ.

And yes, I agree the most critical part of the hand is the turn.

Re: PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

You raised UTG+1, and if he thinks you're decent, I really doubt that he's gonna think that you're bluffing when the 5's pair.

If you think his range is as wide as 77-AA and that he will play the hands the way that you think he will to a turn c/r then I like your play. You get an extra bet out of AK and his smaller PP. You folding to a 3-bet?

Re: PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

why do you want him to fold the river unimproved? doesn't calling and leading the river net you the same amount of bets, and also discourage those pocket pairs from folding?

if he's bluffing the turn, he might just fold to the raise with overs, and if he has overs, he's drawing to three outs, and will likely call or raise if an A hits. if you're behind, you avoid getting 3-bet, and can showdown without fear of being bluffed for the same.

Re: PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

you're contradicting yourself. regardless of villain's range, it's a way ahead, way behind situation. AK is folding to a turn c/r. they're more likely to call a river donkbet than a turn c/r. likewise smaller pocket pair.

i'm not sure why this isn't way ahead/way behind, and i'm even less sure why you're struggling to validate our hero's reasoning. because the board paired? i fail to see how that changes the situation. it makes villain's turn bet MORE likely to be a bluff, hero says. fine. than that makes it even more incorrect to raise on the turn, and might actually make a case for check/calling or check/raising the river as opposed to leading.

Re: PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think hes peeling with AK folding the river UI, which I want him to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think that why do you bet the river? Wouldn't it be better to check the river and try to induce a bluff?

Re: PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think hes peeling with AK folding the river UI, which I want him to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think that why do you bet the river? Wouldn't it be better to check the river and try to induce a bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

2 things here. 1. Im not saying he is on AK, just that that is in his range. My bet is hopefully a calue bet against a pocket pair less than QQ. 2. I want him to peel with AK, not necesarily fold the river, althogh I would expect him to.

Re: PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

you cannot "peel" the river. it's impossible: there are no more cards to come.

and your turn c/r stinks for precisely the reasons you want to use it.

Re: PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
you cannot "peel" the river. it's impossible: there are no more cards to come.

and your turn c/r stinks for precisely the reasons you want to use it.

[/ QUOTE ]

THanks for pointing out that you cannot peel on the river. I'm not sure where you got the impresssion that I thought you could.

My "peeling" was refering to the moment after I CR the turn, and hes looking at one bet, while still on the turn. I would love him to do this with AK, as he is drawing to 3 outs w/o the odds.

Re: PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

what makes you think that he will?

read the rest of the thread. c/call the turn, bet the river. end of story. next.

Re: PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
what makes you think that he will?

[/ QUOTE ]

He believes he has 6 outs, making the peel correct.



[/ QUOTE ] read the rest of the thread. c/call the turn, bet the river. end of story. next.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the rest of the thread where people made good points and stop replying to your arguements taht are wrong?

Re: PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

i love that you read through the thread, selectively ignored where I countered one person's reluctant agreement based on a a second argument YOU made, to solidify the position you took when you played the hand.

why did you post? to hear people tell you that you were right? to instruct us with your play? what? if it was something other than to ask questions about the way you played this hand, please, enlighten us.

if it's not, please consider that you might not have played this hand optimally, and reread my counterarguments to you and that one guy that agreed with you. because i'm right, and i'm trying to help you. not humiliate you, or get into a pissing contest with you.

and since no one has responded to any of my eminently valid points with anything resembling any sort of argument... i fail to see why you have ignored them so utterly.

it speaks very poorly of you and your future at 5/10, and i do not say that with relish.

Re: PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

I think your range for your villain is too big.

Re: PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

A possible freecard on the flop isn't so bad because you have the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], not that you get many freecards here when you're ahead anyway.

The turn c/r is interesting. Really depends on how villian sees you. He may be putting you on a AQ/KQ and pairs. He may have enough doubt now to call down or call here and raise the river. There's no way he can put you on a 5 or 3 here.

I would think any hand that beats you would raise this river. If you are stuck on the table and villian's been around to see it the turn c/r may look like a move with a pair lower than a Q. If so, it's a nice line.

Re: PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

Meh.

First off, this is clearly a WA/WB situation. One of you has 3 or less outs to catch the other. So it's completely fine to take the check/call check/call bet/(call) line.

On the other hand, I think the way you played it is fine for mixing up your play, assuming that you know villian will often call you down with way-behind hands. There are way more { AK, KQ, JJ-77 } hands than { AA, KK, QQ }.

My only concern is that a player with the stats you give is probably decent postflop. I'd expect him to fold the underpairs and AK almost all the time. The line you're taking shows a lot of strength against a PF 3-bettor and he's got to know you have KQ or better pretty much all the time. A more donkish player is going to think you're bluffing with the paired board, but this guy will likely read you for the goods.

Re: PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think your range for your villain is too big.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're right. I don't like my previous post much now.

Re: PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

I understand it's what you hope, but I'm having a hard time seeing *why* he's calling the turn CR with lots of hands over which you are way ahead. If you were in his spot, is AK a substantial part of your range when you CR the 5.5 BB pot?

It looks very WA/WB to me.

Re: PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
I understand it's what you hope, but I'm having a hard time seeing *why* he's calling the turn CR with lots of hands over which you are way ahead. If you were in his spot, is AK a substantial part of your range when you CR the 5.5 BB pot?

It looks very WA/WB to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think lots of hands call the turn.

I'm just wondering why villian never raises the turn with a better hand. Not knowing how hero plays, few would ever give credit for an UTG+1 open holding 3 or 5. The river doesn't change anything.

Re: PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

villain does raise the turn with a better hand. which is one of the many reasons to take a WA/WB line, not this turn c/r.

hero has some wishful thinkin' goin' on.

Re: PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

This hand is actaully really complicated since there are so many things at work here...

1) Will he put bets in on the river (with a worse hand) if you just call the turn?

2) How often are we good here?

3) How often will he bet the river with a worse hand?

Point 3 is usually the most important point in figuring out what to do here. If he will never bet on the end with a worse hand you would play the check/call-check/call-check/fold against him everytime. This doesn't look to be a very good board for this though as JJ or TT will probably value bet on the end.

Number 1 isn't all that useful here since we don't know how often we are good here. If we knew that we held the best hand, we would obviously check/raise the turn if that was the last bet he was intending to put in. The player you describe doesn't sound like one that will be able to make a tough fold on the river with JJ or TT or AK. If this is true, the check/raise is terrible since you get more value by having him put in that last bet with 5-8% equity in a smallish pot. If he would never put in that last bet you would be more inclined to knock him out now since you will only get played with on the river when he outdraws you.

The other problem with check/raising is that we will oftentimes be behind here. While we can (and should) fold if we get 3-bet, we miss out on that ~ 8% chance of outdrawing him if we just check/call. Either way we have to invest 2 BB, so we give up about .8 BB by check/raising and folding to a 3-bet (we will have about 8% equity in a 9.75 BB pot).

The only downside is when we get paid off by a worse hand. We get 1.8 BB minus negative implied odds when he calls the check/raise (and river) with JJ (but remember we lose .8 BB when we have to fold to a 3-bet). So if he will call with JJ or AK half as often as he will 3-bet us, it is about an even $$ proposition.

The problems are...

1) He will sometimes fold JJ or AK or whatever.

2) He might walk us with AA or KK (or even raise the river). If he just calls the turn check/raise with AA, we are forced to put 3 BB into the middle drawing super thin. He might even raise the river with that same hand and force us to put 4 BB in. We avoid these pitfalls by either check/calling down or betting the river after we c/c the turn.

Brad

Re: PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

i agree this is very complicated... but there's a standard line for this very complicated situation... what have you read that differentiates this hand from th WA/WB line?

hero contends villain's range of hands is large, meaning it's more likely he is semi-bluff betting the turn. to me, this screams DO NOT C/R in loud, neon lights, and might argue for a c/call on the river as opposed to the typical bet... although since most of villain's range of hands include pocket pairs, these would seem to me the type of hands that might pay off a river donkbet but check behind if checked to. making the standard line even more obviously correct than usual. finally, since hero thinks villain is relatively straightforward and seems unafraid of being bluff-raised, it would seem yet even MORE beneficial to use the standard wawb line because you can safely fold to a river raise.

Re: PP 10/20 AQ TPTK v. Button 3 bet
 

This line is fine - especially if you can fold the river if 3-bet on the turn. The stand-by of C-C-C-C-B works also followed closely by raising the flop and leading the turn. A lot depends on the opponents ability to fold a hand, how readable their play is and how aggressive you've been in previous hands at the table.

- Jim