3/6(6-max): 88 overpair on flop
 

Villain in this hand is a regular, and I have him at 31/21 through 1.1K hands. I have played with him a bit and he seems fairly solid but this was one of the first hands he had played since he sat down this session. How does my line look and what do you guys think of the minraise on the flop?


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $6 BB (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

UTG ($366.10)
MP ($1204)
CO ($617)
Hero ($600)
SB ($600.25)
BB ($377)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $3.
UTG calls $6, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $25</font>, Hero calls $25, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls $19.

Flop: ($84) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $80</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $160</font>, UTG folds, CO calls $80.

Turn: ($404) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
CO checks, Hero checks.

River: ($404) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">CO bets $199</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $603

Re: 3/6(6-max): 88 overpair on flop
 

Flop minraise is only good if you think he will fold overcards, otherwise it just builds the pot absurdly and gives you no ability to play correctly.

Re: 3/6(6-max): 88 overpair on flop
 

I think he will fold overcards to this raise. That is the purpose of the raise. Also to allow myself a cheap river card.

Re: 3/6(6-max): 88 overpair on flop
 

But what's the point of taking a cheap river card? If you are behind you only have 2 outs anyway (besides runner runner), and the way you played the flop/turn you're conceding the pot anyway to a river bet, which I think sucks because not only do you not get better hands to fold on the flop, but you also let some worse hands win (if the guy is playing 78 or A6 or something).

Re: 3/6(6-max): 88 overpair on flop
 

Ok, I can see your point there xorbie. Can you provide me with a better line to take? What would be your plan of action for this hand?

Re: 3/6(6-max): 88 overpair on flop
 

I'm not really sure to be honest, I hate this spot too. I would probably raise the flop hard, because at this point I can't count on any card higher than 8 as all that safe if I just smooth call (as CO could be raising just about any overcards). If he calls, I'm done with the hand.

Re: 3/6(6-max): 88 overpair on flop
 

Raise flop to $300. Push turn.

Re: 3/6(6-max): 88 overpair on flop
 

Your decision on the flop depends on his frequency of continuation bet on the flop. A lot of player will do less continuation bet on the flop against 2 player than against one. If you know he will often check overcards here, a fold can be correct, and also, theres still the UTG player left to act who could have a hand. If he his the type of player who will bet overcards regardless I agree that a raise is correct, but I would like it more to 200 $, as he will be a lot more honest I think with this amount.

You can call too, but you have to balance the cost of raising without more information on the flop without giving a free card, to the cost of giving a free card to a probable 6 out, but then you can invest more money on the turn with more information. The typical player will usually check two overcards on the turn and bet again with an overpair or a set, but it suck when he mix it up with with a check with an overpair some % of the time, or a bluff when a high card hit.

Its a fairly common situation that is interesting, as its a tough spot.

Re: 3/6(6-max): 88 overpair on flop
 

I like calling these flops

Re: 3/6(6-max): 88 overpair on flop
 

Hey Ace-

This spot is very player dependent. This may be weak, but I fold on the flop often. You're not going to be making a lot of money against worst hands (which hands are going to call that you have beat?) and you stand to lose a bunch if you go into call down mode.

Actually, the more I think about it, maybe I'm lying. It's so player dependent.

I definitely don't minraise. I think if I do anything I'm just calling here and seeing what he does on the turn.

I don't know what raising the flop hard does either. Are you trying to get him to fold a better hand or call with a worse one? I don't think either is happening. Sure you get to protect your hand against high cards sometimes, but I don't think building up that pot is the right way to go.

Also, I bet this turn for a few reasons. (This might be bad advice and I'm ok with getting flamed for it). First, if villain was trying to peel with overs, you take it away now. Well, hold on, I think I'm doubling back on myself again. An overpair would definitely love to CR this turn. And you did pick up a bunch of outs if you are behind. Yeah, I check behind here, too.

Umm, anything else... yeah, river is a fold.

This post was kind of worthless, haha. Sorry.

Re: 3/6(6-max): 88 overpair on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
This may be weak, but I fold on the flop often. You're not going to be making a lot of money against worst hands (which hands are going to call that you have beat?) and you stand to lose a bunch if you go into call down mode.

Actually, the more I think about it, maybe I'm lying. It's so player dependent.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to be lying, josh... He is raising 20+% of his hands, this flop has missed most of them, (prolly raising more in LP, and maybe more to isolate UTG) so our hand is good a big % of the time. After his pot bet, there is 160+$ out there, or 20+ BBs. Raising is better then folding, imo.

I would imagine you're reraising bigger PPs vs such a LAG so is it safe to say then you'd only play on with set, two pair, or pair + gut? If so, you're feeding right into his strategy, as most of the time you wont break him at all if you play on, whereas he'll pick up the pot a rediculous amount of the time.

[ QUOTE ]
I think if I do anything I'm just calling here and seeing what he does on the turn.

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I like this. It doesnt mean I'm folding to a second barrell though. Alot depends on the turn card as well. I'm not concerned about UTG, either, as he probably opens the pot with a bigger pair, so only draw he could peel would be gutshot or random straight draw type stuff... So if he plays on, we found out for the minimum we were behind (not pfr, but original limper)

Cost of protecting this pot (vs most likely ~6outs, esp. when we have a hunch on the worst scare card... an ace) isn't worth expending an additional 80 to make him fold the 6 outer. If UTG wakes up w/ a hand you lose more, and you still allow PFR to push you off your hand. (or in the rarity he DOES have a draw, like if he's raising 78 or whatnot, he will and should peel correctly)

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what raising the flop hard does either. Are you trying to get him to fold a better hand or call with a worse one? I don't think either is happening. Sure you get to protect your hand against high cards sometimes, but I don't think building up that pot is the right way to go.

[/ QUOTE ]

perfect


[ QUOTE ]
Also, I bet this turn for a few reasons. (This might be bad advice and I'm ok with getting flamed for it). First, if villain was trying to peel with overs, you take it away now. Well, hold on, I think I'm doubling back on myself again. An overpair would definitely love to CR this turn. And you did pick up a bunch of outs if you are behind. Yeah, I check behind here, too.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, the turn is interesting. If I bet, I'm pushing. I most likely check, too. But I'm not convinced: a. his flop call means i'm toasted and b. if he knows we minraise monsters, a push enforces that. we have lots of equity in this spot, and hiting a 4str8 probably (although it could) wont get paid off.
[ QUOTE ]

Umm, anything else... yeah, river is a fold.

This post was kind of worthless, haha. Sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think your post was good. River I think I'd fold, you may be good about 25% though, so it's pretty marginal.

Re: 3/6(6-max): 88 overpair on flop
 

flop raise is for a couple reasons. one is that if you dont raise him often, its hard to get paid later. two is that if you dont raise him often, he will continue bet often. three is that your hand is probably good, but it will be expensive if you jsut decide to call down, because a lot of turns suck (what if this guy has 78?).

Re: 3/6(6-max): 88 overpair on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
flop raise is for a couple reasons. one is that if you dont raise him often, its hard to get paid later. two is that if you dont raise him often, he will continue bet often. three is that your hand is probably good, but it will be expensive if you jsut decide to call down, because a lot of turns suck (what if this guy has 78?).

[/ QUOTE ]

problem with a raise is normally if he calls or pushes I assume you fold? But then you've expended half your stack to "find where you are" and protect vs an unlikely (albeit possible) draw out.

I cant see him folding a better hand, either, so maybe he'll go broke with tptk or so, thin value in a raise.

Ideally, a flop raise is better w/ JT, A8, KK, 56, etc.

Normally, with stack sizes as related to potential pot size, (pf to flop) a general philosophy should be that a flop raise typically enables a big pot. As in, each person is typically 1+ big bet to being all in, (think pot raise pf,call, ~8+ in pot, pot/repot, 8-&gt;24, and suddenly each person has about pot = stack, or roughly... even if you dont pot, it works out that you rarely have enough to make a comfortable bet/fold w/ 2 streets to go) what this means is a flopraise should be either strong or weak. middle relative strength hands,(like 7x or 88 on this flop) its ok to raise if when called you canexpect to check it down, but against lags this normally isn't thecase.

So, if you feel your hand isgood enough, (like vs a maniac0 you want to be all in, by all means raise the flop. or, if you know you're beaten and a flop raise would show profit with most holdings, (huge nit, I guess) then it's ok for another reason.

But to me, neither fits the case,so I'd rather calland make mydecision w/ 1 streetto go, rather then creating a pot where my pot odds will force my hand.

Re: 3/6(6-max): 88 overpair on flop
 

put all your chips in on the turn

Re: 3/6(6-max): 88 overpair on flop
 

Villain in this hand was horryclutch, a regular on Pocketfives. He was gracious enough to show me a set of 6's.

Re: 3/6(6-max): 88 overpair on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like calling these flops

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damn bobbo, your station tendencies must be rubbing off on me, cause that's what I'd want to do here

Re: 3/6(6-max): 88 overpair on flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like calling these flops

[/ QUOTE ]

damn bobbo, your station tendencies must be rubbing off on me, cause that's what I'd want to do here

[/ QUOTE ]

wooooooo

o/t but you need to be on aim more [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: 3/6(6-max): 88 overpair on flop
 

This is a terrible idea.

Re: 3/6(6-max): 88 overpair on flop
 

I think a flat call on the flop is the way to go with this hand. With your reraise preflop (which I dont really think is the greatest idea), villain knows you have some kind of a hand. He is not leading out here with nothing (ie: high cards). Thus he either:

1.) has a set and is betting into you, thinking you have a big pair and hoping you'll reraise him right there
2.) has a pair, over or on the board, and is trying to figure out if you have high cards

i think flat calling here saves you money when behind and doesnt really risk giving a free card that can hurt you if you're ahead, since it's likely villain isn't in there betting with overcards. you have position, see what card comes on the turn and how villain acts. make your decision there.

Re: 3/6(6-max): 88 overpair on flop
 

i dunno, i think one of the problems with calling this flop is that because you know it hasn't connected very well with villains range, and because he knows it, i think hes checking the turn often with a hand (or at least this has been my experience). are you checking the turn and calling the river?

Re: 3/6(6-max): 88 overpair on flop
 

Flop call. Turn check. River call. Standard.
Are you thinking you'll only get a turn check with a flop raise?

Re: 3/6(6-max): 88 overpair on flop
 

I'm shocked that everyone immediately rules out a continuation bet with AK/AQ just because there are two callers. The minraise in my opinion would get AK/AQ to fold. I think that was the main purpose of my flop raise.

Re: 3/6(6-max): 88 overpair on flop
 

id rather let AK/AQ continue to bluff at me...

i guess i like making hard decisions that pay off huge when im right...hmm something to reconsider i guess

Re: 3/6(6-max): 88 overpair on flop
 

Ive played with horry a fair bit and against him this minraise (from time to time) is probably a good plan, although I dont do it myself.

As withall things its player dependent, obviously in his eyes he saw you minraising as a sign of strength (but not anymore). Leave it a week then do it with AA or whatnot &amp; you'll get another barrel out of his overs.