Blind Defense Stop and Goes
 

I have been experimenting with a new line when there I elect to defend heads up.

Party 15/30 Decent table.

Folded to the CO who open raises, folded to me in the BB, I call with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

CO is new to the table and I have not seen him before, but I haven't seen him get much out of line.

Flop is T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet, CO raises, I call.

It seems in this game that a raise is somewhat more likely to be overcards than a better hand and a call is somewhat more likely to be a better hand than overcards.

Turn is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], I bet.

Re: Blind Defense Stop and Goes
 

I am missing how this is better than just 3 betting the flop?

Re: Blind Defense Stop and Goes
 

Nice.

What do you do if raised again?

Re: Blind Defense Stop and Goes
 

What other hands will you bet out on the flop with in this situation?

Re: Blind Defense Stop and Goes
 

What turnip said. I think you're simply giving up value by not bet-3betting.

Re: Blind Defense Stop and Goes
 

i hate every post that ends with "i bet"

Re: Blind Defense Stop and Goes
 

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i hate every post that ends with "i bet"

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pff. Often that's the best way otherwise it gives off results and that would affect the rest of the hand. Also, in this case, the bet was what he was wondering about. Don't be so sensitive. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

related question
 

I would checkraise this a whole lot of the time unless he will always raise overcards. standard or is bet-3bet better?

--turnipmonster

Re: Blind Defense Stop and Goes
 

it's just the intentional finality of it that implies that the move is clever. "i bet" is like "i flat call, then i punch myself in the cock" with a wink

anyway the only time i think this is more profitable is if the person is extremely likely to raise you with anything on the turn just because the stop and go will make them angry. if AJ is going to pop you on the turn here, by all means. you also can't let a jack or queen bother you either if you're aiming for that.

Re: Blind Defense Stop and Goes
 

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i hate every post that ends with "i bet"

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pff. Often that's the best way otherwise it gives off results and that would affect the rest of the hand. Also, in this case, the bet was what he was wondering about. Don't be so sensitive. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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Maybe astro was refering to the fact that it sounds like the OP is trying to wager on whether the turn was the 3 of diamonds [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Blind Defense Stop and Goes
 

What part of 'i punch myself in the cock' is clever? Worst...analogy...ever...

Anyways, I like 3-betting on the flop.

Re: Blind Defense Stop and Goes
 

That's really part of my question too. I may have the best hand slightly more often than I don't, but if I 3-bet the flop and bet the turn and river, I could get called down by a better hand or the turn may hurt me. In addition, if I 3-bet and bet the turn, he could "correctly" call the turn with overcards.

If I bet the turn and get raised again, it's an easy fold, but if I was ahead on the flop, my edge on the turn is bigger and I lose less when behind.

Does any of this make sense or is this just another reason why my post-flop aggression is low? As I said, this is an experiment that I'm trying out.

Astro - FWIW my opponent folded.

Re: Blind Defense Stop and Goes
 

i like 3-betting the flop because then if i lead the turn and get raised i'm willing to fold the hand (opponent dependent). calling on the flop doesn't give you enough info when the turn raise comes (since, as you hint at, a flop call and a turn raise is a stronger line by the villain than a flop raise and a turn raise).

leading out is a good play here and your hand is good most of the time, as you know. but you have to take into consideration the times when you are behind and minimize the damage, as well as giving yourself some slim chance of getting away from the hand on the turn.

Re: Blind Defense Stop and Goes
 

I dont think it's an easy fold if you get popped on the turn. You start doing that [censored] versus me and I'll start popping you on almost every turn. And i'm not kidding. I'm sure many others would start noticing too. At least until you re-adjusted.

Re: Blind Defense Stop and Goes
 

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it's just the intentional finality of it that implies that the move is clever. "i bet" is like "i flat call, then i punch myself in the cock" with a wink

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Worst annalogy ever. And I don't think barry was trying to be clever.

Re: Blind Defense Stop and Goes
 

1) I thought astro's analogy was f'in hilarious.

2) I didn't really get it from Barry's post - I think he was just describing his action and soliciting comment on that as opposed to a flop 3-bet or turn checkraise attempt. However, astro's general point is very correct. Often posts go something like "i check, he bets, i checkraise" where they really mean to say "i check, he bets, i checkraise <suck on that, bitches>." My response to those is usually, ooooooh goody for you.

Re: Blind Defense Stop and Goes
 

unless CO is super tight you figure to have the best hand a large percentage of the time, I don't think you can fold the turn HU out of position because he can raise lots of hands and take a free showdown. I am not the best limit player but it seems to me like you need to play your hand as if you're ahead and see a showdown. is this thinking incorrect in the party 15?

--turnipmonster

Re: Blind Defense Stop and Goes
 

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I don't think barry was trying to be clever

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I have been experimenting with a new line

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it's a general comment, not something against barry. i think he's a swell guy. ending a post with "i [action]" (fold, checkraise, anything) is most often a stick that in your pipe and smoke it kind of statement, especially so with "i bet". it implies the sassy, irreverent twist that they have put on poker, and it's supposed to be the part you talk about. i think it takes on a totally different feel if you say "i bet, he raises. i've been experimenting with calling instead of threebetting here and then betting any turn. is that line better?" watch for the "action end" in future posts, trust me.

don't read too much into it. but the analogy was awesome.

Re: Blind Defense Stop and Goes
 

While I agree the actual comment in the analogy was hilarious, it just didn't do it for me when you were trying to relate it to the situation at hand. You coulda picked a better spot for that one is all.

I get it now...what you're saying about the sassyness of "I bet, BITCHES!!!"

Re: Blind Defense Stop and Goes
 

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You start doing that [censored] versus me and I'll start popping you on almost every turn

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I see your point here and I guess that I'm referring to the normal Party crowd and not vs. thinking players. Plus my game selection is getting better and I'm avoiding you guys.

Astro, I wasn't trying to be cute or or show off what I think was a great move. I'm truly curious as to this line, which so far is getting bad reviews.

Heck I've only made 1 post in recent history, where I thought I played it well and the few that bothered to reply hated it.

Re: Blind Defense Stop and Goes
 

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I dont think it's an easy fold if you get popped on the turn. You start doing that [censored] versus me and I'll start popping you on almost every turn. And i'm not kidding. I'm sure many others would start noticing too. At least until you re-adjusted.

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Yeah, I'm calling down most of the time against an unknown blind stealer in this game. You'll not only encounter some total bluffs, but also some second-best hands like middle pair that are making some funky semibluff semislowplay, which seems to be in vogue lately.

Re: Blind Defense Stop and Goes
 

I don't get it. Sounds like everyone else thinks there's some merit to this line, so I'm probably off base. So please help. But here's how I see it.

PREFLOP: Nothing wrong with a call here. Or a raise or even a fold for that matter.

FLOP: Gold. Couldn't be a heck of a lot better, really. Ok, so how do we extract the max? Bet out! Great. I love it. CO could well think you're just taking a stab at a ragged flop and give you some action with his any 2 steal. Bingo! He raises. Ok. Maybe 3-bet? Nah, that'd allow him to call and fold on the turn unimproved. We want to extract more than 1 SB more out of this thing. Smoothcall. Nice. Now you're primed for the turn check-raise, which he could even call with just something like KQ or KJ. And if an A or Q flops, you can always slow down.

TURN: Ok, so here's where you lose me. You bet? Why? If I'm CO I fold my KJ or KQ or K9 or 75 that I was about to bluff bet with pretty quick when you make that bet. In fact, I'm not calling with much less than a flush draw given this ugly board. What else would he call with that you're ahead of here -- maybe middle pair? That's about it. So what you've done, it seems to me, is set up a situation where you extract the LEAST when you're ahead and stand to lose the most (if he raises the turn) if you're behind.

Like I said, though, very good posters seem to think this is not so bad, I'm just not sure why. Please explain.

Re: Blind Defense Stop and Goes
 

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ending a post with "i [action]" (fold, checkraise, anything) is most often a stick that in your pipe and smoke it kind of statement, especially so with "i bet". it implies the sassy, irreverent twist that they have put on poker, and it's supposed to be the part you talk about.

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not that i actually play mid/high, but I since I read it all the time, i have to say that you succinctly expressed my unbiased third party opinion on the posts that end with "I <action>". just a perfect analysis of it, really.

Re: Blind Defense Stop and Goes
 

Nate and astro have hit it on the head. The big problem with the stop and go as opposed to check-raising the flop and leading the turn is the loss of the small bet those times your opponent folds on the turn. Most players simply aren't going to raise you on the turn with a worse hand, so you can discount the induce-a-bluff factor.

As far as I know, there are four situations in which the stop and go is a good play: (1) your pot equity on the flop is such that it's EV-neutral at best to continue jamming, rather than wait for a safe card on the turn; (2) you don't want to shut out people between you and a late-position raiser with a flop 3-bet, and you want to get at least one bet from them on the turn; (3) your opponent is capable of folding to a turn 3-bet if his hand is marginal/you think he's raising for a free showdown; (4) you think betting/3-betting the river will be more profitable than 3-betting the turn.

In response to turnipmonster's question, I don't see any benefit to betting the flop. You basically have position because the preflop raiser is going to auto-bet. Why sacrifice it? By betting, you let your opponent get away from a lot of hands he would've bet.

Re: Blind Defense Stop and Goes
 

Against an unknown player I generally like your line as it make's villian calling the turn with just overcards a bigger mistake as the pot is kept smaller by one big bet. However ...

If I am the villian in this case and I had semibluff raised the flop with over cards and read this manouever and I felt you knew how to lay down a hand look for a possible second semibluff raise on the turn to take the pot from you.

DS's TOP book - "defense against the semi-bluff" chapter suggests your line as one way to defend against the semi-bluff raise. If villian believes you are following that line, well you may well get raised again.

Re: Blind Defense Stop and Goes
 

Barry, since you figure to have the best hand here a large percentage of the time, i dont think this line is bad. However, hw could be raising this flpo with overs and 77-99, so the one advantage to 3 betting the flop is you get more info.

hi
 

if u bet the turn and get raised it is not an easy fold w/ top pair, lets see a river