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All I was really getting at is that these IQ performances Phil was referencing are products of environment and circumstance, as oppose to anything inherent to race.

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So skin color, facial features, height, body build, bone density, onset of puberty, disease susceptibility, and cranial structure vary along racial lines, but brain size or shape don't? That's interesting.

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I can show you a white man who has an IQ of 160. Does this mean whites are, on average, smarter than asians? Does it mean they don't have an average of IQ of 100?

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Ok, I understand your point now.

On a sidenote, it is interesting to see how breeding in modern times has become almost an insult, when it use to be considered a sign of good health and benefit. I encourage more breeding.

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I can show you a white man who has an IQ of 160. Does this mean whites are, on average, smarter than asians? Does it mean they don't have an average of IQ of 100?

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Hardly. But you said this:



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I'm convinced they don't have the brain capacity to survive and contribute positively in modern civilisation. Despite many years and government efforts, the SAT scores of a certain race remain shockingly low. They are on the border of retardation. Even the elite of this race fail to excel.



[/ QUOTE ] In which I responded by pointing to Prof. Neal. Clearly, this man has the brain capacity to contribute in modern civilization. In addition I would hardly say he has failed to excel.

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Phil Ivey wants to play you heads up.

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I called him a moron for saying blacks 'bred like rabbits' and were 'on the borderline of retardation'. Which is frankly offensive.

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But true.

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That's clearly the case is contemporary society.

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This is very wrong and goes against the accepted wisdom. Dumb people have more kids, and have for a long time. See this reference - and there are many other credible ones that I have read.

http://www.eugenics.net/papers/Intelfert.html

"This paper reports the results of the first analysis of the relationship between intelligence and completed fertility (as well as partially completed fertility) in the United States which employs a large, representative sample of the population. The major finding is that the relationship has been predominantly negative from 1912 to 1982."

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Interbreeding, what's your evidence of that? Would test participants of mixed race qualify for these kind of studies on race related IQ? I don't know the answer to that - but I'm guessing not.

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These aren't race related tests. They're tests for the military, school, etc where race is reported as a statistic along with other information.

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Again this is not an issue of race it's an issue of environment. If you visit sub-saharan africa you'll see exactly why IQ is not highly valued. Black Americans/Europeans etc do not live in Africa. If a high IQ is attractive, and a gap is present as a result of that history, it will close with or without interbreeding.

[/ QUOTE ] You have a flawed understanding of reproduction in modern times.

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And just as a voice of reason, the gap isn't exactly very big as it is, and there's plenty crossover.

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The gap between 100 and 85 IQ is massive in modern society. An IQ this low makes you incapable of holding many middle class jobs, running a business, going to college, adequately planning for your future, educating your kids, or finding creative solutions to your social or economic difficulties. Let alone excelling in those endeavours. Why do you think there's so much crime amongst this race? Poverty alone doesn't account for it, not any more.

There is some crossover. But you generally need a reasonable IQ to be successful in modern life, and less than 15% of blacks have even an average white IQ. Such a large population of semi-retarded individuals (50% below 85) results in cultural and family problems as well, such as gangs, drugs, and seeing violence as a solution to problems.

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The phenomena you're talking about, and the article you reference, concerns the intelligentsia being outbred. That is, the higher IQ, college educated, middle class etc being outbred by the less educated lower social classes. That's obviously real and happening, and the conventional wisdom you're referring to. But it's not what I'm talking about. As hard as it is to believe with all the stupid people crapping out kids, they are selecting IQ. This is evidenced by a steady increase in average IQ throughout the west over the last 50 years or so despite the lower socio-economic classes doing most of the breeding.

And RE: race studies. Test participants a poor language choice on my part, I just mean to say that I suspect being mixed race precludes being counted for the purpose of those statistics. Obviously it'd be a huge scientific flaw otherwise.

And RE: race inheritance. All those things are environmental also. They're a product of selection just like IQ, and as IQ becomes advantageous, which it clearly is in our society, that selection will take place, and the gap will close - which it clearly already is doing.

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I called him a moron for saying blacks 'bred like rabbits' and were 'on the borderline of retardation'. Which is frankly offensive.

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But true.

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'Bred like rabbits' could be said about Irish Catholics, who have a 'cultural predisposition' to making lots of babies. In fact, the Irish-and other groups considered white today- where labeled 'black' during their dominant period of emigration. The original term 'black' was meant more for poor immigrants than actual skin color. It wasn't until later that the association between being labeled 'black' and African skin color was founded. Supposedly the association was promoted by industrial barons who wanted to divide the poor work force, in order to maintain lower wages. I don't have any evidence to back that up though, maybe someone else on here does.

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...the article you reference, concerns the intelligentsia being outbred.

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No, it doesn't. It examines the statistical correlation between all IQ levels in a society and the number of children produced. It's standard knowledge in anthropology/sociology that female completed fertility (i.e. number of kids) is inversely proportional to IQ in modern societies - over the entire population range. It's been an area of concern as it's believed people will get dumber (on average) as result of this trend.

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This is evidenced by a steady increase in average IQ throughout the west over the last 50 years

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No, it's not. This is happening in spite of the negative correlation (which is considered fact).

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OK, I maybe should have read the article [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Is there the same correlation with males?