Party .5/1: AQo in the SB
 

This is the same table as my AKs post. The button is the loose-passive preflop, but aggressive post flop player from before. The BB appears to be tight-aggressive preflop and passive post flop and UTG+1 seems to be a bit loose passive, but has only been at the table a dozen or so hands.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>...

First is the preflop limp too weak? I likely would have lost the BB with a raise, but I am out of position and going to be facing at least two opponents so I figured just completeing was better.

What does everyone think of the flop raise? I figured the button could be betting almost any hand here. If you like the raise do you fold to a re-raise by any of the opponents. If they call do you bet the turn if you still don't improve?

Re: Party .5/1: AQo in the SB
 

I would probably raise preflop and lead this flop.

Re: Party .5/1: AQo in the SB
 

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I would probably raise preflop and lead this flop.

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Both those are incorrect.

Re: Party .5/1: AQo in the SB
 

Why? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Party .5/1: AQo in the SB
 

Maybe I should give my reasoning first. Preflop, against 2 limpers, I think AQo is a huge favorite so I want to put money into the pot while I'm winning. I think this makes up for the crappy position we have at this point. Plus I could knock out the BB and put some dead money in the middle.

On the flop (assuming that I had raised) I would want to lead because I have 3 outs to catch an A, a backdoor flush and a backdoor straight draw. It's even possible that the unimproved AQ is the best hand right now. Even if I don't improve on the turns, the K on the board might scare the limpers into folding the flop.

Re: Party .5/1: AQo in the SB
 

I don't like the preflop raise because we're out of position. Why put extra bets in when the only way we're playing past the flop is if we hit? Put in the minimum and we'll have these limpers dominated if a Q or A is on the flop (which means they'll put in extra bets against us).

Also, betting into 3 opponents with one overcard and a paired board is very dangerous. Its to easy to get raised behind and end up paying extra to see the turn when we could easily be drawing dead anyway. However, if we were last to act, this would be an easy bet.

The check-raise here is interesting, I'd only do it if I knew the button was a habitual bluffer but a weakie at heart. Otherwise I wait for another hand to try something fancy like this.

Re: Party .5/1: AQo in the SB
 

I would raise preflop. I dont know why that one dude said it is incorrect to raise AQ from sb.

I don't really like the checkraise here. You have one over card and a couple of backdoor draws. The paired board is scary, the ace of hearts might not help you if someone else has a couple hearts in their hand to complete a flush. Plus the pot is very small. I think betting out and folding to a raise or check folding are pretty close courses of action. I think I would prefer to check fold because the pot is just too small .

Re: Party .5/1: AQo in the SB
 

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I would raise preflop. I dont know why that one dude said it is incorrect to raise AQ from sb.

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Read the post I just made, can you see my arguement? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Party .5/1: AQo in the SB
 

Thanks for the response. A couple of questions...

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I don't like the preflop raise because we're out of position. Why put extra bets in when the only way we're playing past the flop is if we hit? Put in the minimum and we'll have these limpers dominated if a Q or A is on the flop (which means they'll put in extra bets against us).


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This is how I used to rationalize limping with AK in my (more) weak tight days. Is AQ that much worse of a hand in this early position (even against 2 party .5-1.00 limpers)?


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Also, betting into 3 opponents with one overcard and a paired board is very dangerous. Its to easy to get raised behind and end up paying extra to see the turn when we could easily be drawing dead anyway. However, if we were last to act, this would be an easy bet.


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When the board pairs like this I usually assume it is much less likely for someone to be holding one of the last 4s. Also 4 is a very low card. If there was a pair of Ts on the board, I would be more afraid (people are more willing to limp with JT than J4). Another thing -- a lot of these players will wait until the turn to raise if they do have a 4. If the turn comes a blank, we can easily check-fold. (Although if we catch an A, we are a bit screwed).

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The check-raise here is interesting, I'd only do it if I knew the button was a habitual bluffer but a weakie at heart. Otherwise I wait for another hand to try something fancy like this.

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Agreed.

Thoughts?

Re: Party .5/1: AQo in the SB
 

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The check-raise here is interesting, I'd only do it if I knew the button was a habitual bluffer but a weakie at heart. Otherwise I wait for another hand to try something fancy like this.

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Does he have to be a habitual bluffer? Aggressive post flop players will often bet this hand from the button not because they are bluffing, but because they think they probably have the best hand even if they missed on the flop.

Re: Party .5/1: AQo in the SB
 

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I don't like the preflop raise because we're out of position. Why put extra bets in when the only way we're playing past the flop is if we hit? Put in the minimum and we'll have these limpers dominated if a Q or A is on the flop (which means they'll put in extra bets against us).


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I didnt see your argument when I posted, we were writting at the same time =). I don't know, I dont like giving the bb a free look at the board when i have a good hand. I would rather them fold than let them see the flop for free with 84 and make me draw into two backdoor draws. Well that doesn't always happen, it is probable enough that I rarely slowplay anything because I would rather occasionally steal the blinds than let other players outdraw me for free.

Re: Party .5/1: AQo in the SB
 

Just for the record, I raise AQs in the sb.

AQo isn't a bad hand, its just that a preflop raise here won't give us position, or make more marginal hands fold (we make the assumption that the preflop callers will call another). So we already know whos in the pot, why make them pay extra now when we can make them pay more later?

Also limping with AK is bad because it encourages more hands to call behind us, giving us less position, and a broader spectrum of possible hands, which makes for difficult post flop decisions when theres a lot of raising going on in front of us and we've only hit top pair.


Also, don't look at what cards there could be, look at what we have to do to win this hand. We have to pick up an Ace or Queen (ace high probably won't win at this level), our only out is an ace if someone has a king, and thats all considering no one has a 4, or a mid pocket pair. We have no draws to a better hand then 3 of a kind. The pots small, so why fight for it vs 3 random hands in front of us?

Folding the turn UI is bad when we bet out on the flop. Now we check the turn. Anyone worth their salt in poker will probably bet into us, whether they picked up a pair with the blank or not. Now the hand is all weird, we're unable to nail our opponents to any hands, we're out of position, why pay extra chips to be in this horrible position?

Re: Party .5/1: AQo in the SB
 

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I didnt see your argument when I posted, we were writting at the same time =). I don't know, I dont like giving the bb a free look at the board when i have a good hand. I would rather them fold than let them see the flop for free with 84 and make me draw into two backdoor draws. Well that doesn't always happen, it is probable enough that I rarely slowplay anything because I would rather occasionally steal the blinds than let other players outdraw me for free.

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This isn't slow playing btw, slow playing is when you do it with a made hand. AQ isn't a made hand. BB is going to get 7:1 on his call, counting implied odds, so I think he's calling with 84 anyway.

And remember, this is an easy raise from any position other than the sb preflop.

Re: Party .5/1: AQo in the SB
 

You only complete AQo out of the SB, and only bet if an A or a Q hit the flop? I don't like that play at all. With 4 players, how good is your hand?

I raise that preflop. On this flop, I bet out, call a raise, and wait for the turn.

[edit] Just saw your reply...you're not raising to push people out, you're raising for value.

Re: Party .5/1: AQo in the SB
 

I never said that, but who is reckless enough to lead AQ out with a K44 board with 3 unknown left to act?

T42 board with 2 of the same suit as one of our broadways is what I lead out on.

Re: Party .5/1: AQo in the SB
 

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who is reckless enough to lead AQ out with a K44 board with 3 unknown left to act?


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Apparently me. But maybe not anymore. Thanks for everyone's thoughts.

Results
 

Thanks for the thoughts everyone.

After I check-raised the flop BB, UTG+1, and Button all folded and I took it down. That certainly doesn't mean the check-raise was correct, but it worked in this spot.

Thanks again.

Re: Party .5/1: AQo in the SB
 

If you raise AQo in your position, it makes it easier to lead out on the flop than if you just complete. Again, you're raising for value here.

You have the 13th best hand preflop (based on pokerroom's EV) and you aren't raising because you're in the SB against three other limpers? I have a hard time understanding this, personally. Sure, you're out of position, but you probably have the best hand out of these limpers.

Re: Party .5/1: AQo in the SB
 

agreed, with two limpers (no reads?) and the BB id raise for value. chances are you have the best hand.

Re: Party .5/1: AQo in the SB
 

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If you raise AQo in your position, it makes it easier to lead out on the flop than if you just complete. Again, you're raising for value here.

You have the 13th best hand preflop (based on pokerroom's EV) and you aren't raising because you're in the SB against three other limpers? I have a hard time understanding this, personally. Sure, you're out of position, but you probably have the best hand out of these limpers.

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Because you can extract more money if you hit, less money if you miss. AQo vs 3 limpers needs top pair, if you don't you've wasted money. Once you have top pair, then start to charge them. You'll make more money.

Re: Party .5/1: AQo in the SB
 

I seems that you could apply this exact same argument to justify completing w/ AK... would you do that?

I'm sure you are aware of this, but SSHE advises to raise AQo from the SB.

Re: Party .5/1: AQo in the SB
 

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If you raise AQo in your position, it makes it easier to lead out on the flop than if you just complete. Again, you're raising for value here.

You have the 13th best hand preflop (based on pokerroom's EV) and you aren't raising because you're in the SB against three other limpers? I have a hard time understanding this, personally. Sure, you're out of position, but you probably have the best hand out of these limpers.

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Because you can extract more money if you hit, less money if you miss. AQo vs 3 limpers needs top pair, if you don't you've wasted money. Once you have top pair, then start to charge them. You'll make more money.

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I still think a raise from the SB is in order, if anything, you're +EV.