100 NL - JJ - coordinated flop
 

$100NL 6max. villain hasn't done anything to make me notice him over a small number of hands, he is loose preflop (40/10 type). Effective stacks are around $90.

UTG limps, 2 folds, Hero (button) raises to $5 with JJ, 2 folds, UTG calls.

Flop ($11.50) - 10 9 8 rainbow

Villain bets $8, Hero raises to $24.

is this flop raise ok? What's your plan for the rest of this hand if he calls?

edit - added hero's position

Re: 100 NL - JJ - coordinated flop
 

I like the flop raise. You have a good hand with plenty of drawing opportunities, and his bet seems to be nothing more than a continuation with air - he might have AJ, but I think you'll quickly find out whether he has JQ or not (is he the kind of player that will play 67s UTG?). If he reraises all in, though, I'm probably done with the hand.

If he's got two pair or a set, he's probably going to call and check the turn. I'm probably checking behind...an all in from him on the turn, I'm done unless it is a 7 or Q.

Re: 100 NL - JJ - coordinated flop
 

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is this flop raise ok? What's your plan for the rest of this hand if he calls?

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depends on the turn card and what he does on the turn.

i don't like a raise on the flop, i just call.

Re: 100 NL - JJ - coordinated flop
 

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his bet seems to be nothing more than a continuation with air

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why would he be c-betting in hero's pot?

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If he's got two pair or a set, he's probably going to call and check the turn. I'm probably checking behind...an all in from him on the turn, I'm done unless it is a 7 or Q.

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i'd have trouble calling an all in if the turn was a Q

Re: 100 NL - JJ - coordinated flop
 

Raising this flop is absolutely the right play. If he calls I'll check behind on the turn if given the chance and call a resonable bet on the river. If he leads at the turn I'm folding. JMO

Re: 100 NL - JJ - coordinated flop
 

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his bet seems to be nothing more than a continuation with air

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why would he be c-betting in hero's pot?

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He called a raise preflop. He's first to act postflop. This is not "Hero's pot." It's still up for grabs. Call the bet what you like.

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If he's got two pair or a set, he's probably going to call and check the turn. I'm probably checking behind...an all in from him on the turn, I'm done unless it is a 7 or Q.

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i'd have trouble calling an all in if the turn was a Q

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Why? Lets say he calls Hero's raise and makes the nuts with a Q. It means he had KJ and limp-called PF. While this is semi-reasonable, you can't be scared of the nuts every hand.

Re: 100 NL - JJ - coordinated flop
 

Im having a hard time figuring this hand out as well.

Will a 40/10 player lead the flop if he flopped a big hand against a PFR? Probably not, slowplaying / checkraising would be the line most of these guys would take (generalization but I dont have aggression figures here)

I think hero can take from that that villain likely does not have a big hand yet. Since hero is drawing at the good end of the straight as well and has an overpair, you're likely ahead. If we assume you're ahead and have position and the good side draw, why not let the turn come instead of trying to win the flop? This is not a board i want to play a huge pot in if possible.

As played, I think he's got a piece and a draw. Your correct turn line given that guess is to bet if he checks, and call if he bets. If he open pushes, i'm rethinking that read [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 100 NL - JJ - coordinated flop
 

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his bet seems to be nothing more than a continuation with air

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why would he be c-betting in hero's pot?

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He called a raise preflop. He's first to act postflop. This is not "Hero's pot." It's still up for grabs. Call the bet what you like.

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when i raise preflop and get a caller, i have control of the pot - it's my pot. when i raise preflop and someone bets into me, i don't have control of the pot anymore.

raising an overpair w/ an open ended draw on THAT board after being bet into seems very donk-ish to me.

i'd just call the flop bet from villain. you have position and a decent hand to see another card with.

if villain calls your flop raise and leads the turn you're done with the hand. if you just call, you keep the pot small with your marginal holdings... hope this makes sense.

Re: 100 NL - JJ - coordinated flop
 

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Since hero is drawing at the good end of the straight as well and has an overpair, you're likely ahead. If we assume you're ahead and have position and the good side draw, why not let the turn come instead of trying to win the flop? This is not a board i want to play a huge pot in if possible.

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well said.

Re: 100 NL - JJ - coordinated flop
 

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when i raise preflop and get a caller, i have control of the pot - it's my pot. when i raise preflop and someone bets into me, i don't have control of the pot anymore.


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Which is why we now raise to regain the initiative

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raising an overpair w/ an open ended draw on THAT board after being bet into seems very donk-ish to me.


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So we both agree that we likely have the best hand and if we don't our outs are likely live, but you don't want any more $ in the pot?

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i'd just call the flop bet from villain. you have position and a decent hand to see another card with.


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Any card that helps your hand and doesn't help villian is likely killing your action.

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if villain calls your flop raise and leads the turn you're done with the hand. if you just call, you keep the pot small with your marginal holdings... hope this makes sense.

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not really...

Re: 100 NL - JJ - coordinated flop
 

well buddy, we obviously disagree.

i can assure you that bloating the pot w/ JJ on that board is bad and will lose you a lot of money in the long run.

Re: 100 NL - JJ - coordinated flop
 

I'm just going to "ditto" poboy's response to you, only adding this:

You seem to advocate an incredibly weak approach to what is likely the best hand postflop.

Re: 100 NL - JJ - coordinated flop
 

I want to see some other respected posters give some thoughts on this hand as I think it's interesting and not a clear action either way.

I'm going to disagree with the concept of 'having to take charge of the hand' on the flop when I have position and a potential donk betting into me when I've got the best draw and probably the best hand. In position I can command my hands regardless of who is leading off the betting.

I don't want the Villain 3-bet pushing here unless I'm looking to gambool to set a table image as well. You're getting 2:1 facing an extra $60 from villain and have at best 8 outs with two to come. Likely some tainted outs by his action as well.

BUMP it up.

Re: 100 NL - JJ - coordinated flop
 

Interesting hand.

Some reasons to raise:
-Regain the initiative.
-Don't allow a cheap(er)draw for a possible A10,A9,KQ, etc.
-Gain more value from possible J10, TP type hand.
-Take it down now.

Some reasons to call:
-Sexy draw
-Does not bloat the pot with 1 pair/draw
-Does not reopen betting
-Position on the hand

I think calling is best here. I do think we are ahead here, but if we are reraised, I won't like it. With the overpair/OESD+position, I think calling is best. No need to blow this pot out of control with our hand.

As played, (if villan calls the raise): if a blank turn comes on turn and villan checks, I probobly check behind. Take the free card.

If a A, 10, or K come and villan bets, I probobly have to reevaluate the bet size. Really depends I think.