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-   -   Preflop Limp-re-raising trouble (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=322865)

DavidC 08-25-2005 06:30 PM

Preflop Limp-re-raising trouble
 
Before I begin, I'd like to mention something:

Thank you very much, to the guy that made the ML digeest this month. In the first content post, someone posts a link to a post by shill in the archives. That post is worth checking out, too, FYI.

---------------

Anyways, I've been doing some experimenting with preflop limp-re-raising, and it hasn't been going too well. I do this mostly at tight-aggressive tables, and I generally will do this from EP and my range is generally something like AQs, AKs, AA-QQ. I won't do this all the time, either, because if I did, it would narrow my EP PFR range enormously: leaving me with something like jj-tt,aj, kqs.

I haven't read Abdul's PF strategy, but I gather that this is the sort of thing that he would do.

I did this, today, with AKs.

The lineup at the table was as follows:

I'm UTG, (44) 20/2, (6) 33/0, (5) 40/20, (317) 17/8, (43) 40/14, (43) 40/14, (55) 16/5, (44) 16/7, (565) 17/12, (53) 58/21

Numbers in brackets are sample sizes (hands), then vpip/pfr.
Table average was 28.6/9.91/30.61 (wsd)

This was a pretty damn good table...

However... looking around the table, this is probably something that I'm looking to bet out and cap with, as long as the LAGs are willing to three-bet with a decent range of hands. If they're the kind of lags that like to raise, but don't really like to three-bet, then I still think PFLRR has some merit. Keep in mind that some of the guys with super-high vpips have sample sizes less than 10.

Any comments on preflop limp-re-raising would be lovely. Particularly if there's some examples of when it might actually be a good play. This might be a play that's beyond my skill at this time (I'm most likely to apply it incorrectly).

I'll follow with how the hand played out in a bit.

DavidC 08-25-2005 08:31 PM

Re: Preflop Limp-re-raising trouble
 
The villains in this hand were teh unknown (5) 40/20 guy, in MP1, and the LAGGY BB (53) 58/21/1.82/32 (wsd).

----

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (4.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, MP3 folds, <font color="#CC3333">BB caps</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, BB calls, Hero folds.

---------------------------

Here's the thing, I've seen BB make some bad pf decisions. Afterwards he tends to get a wee bit freaky on the flop, putting in an extra bet or raise somewhere he shouldn't, but he isn't the kinda guy that caps to the river with nothing.

The BB in this hand could have an unlimitedly shitty hand, so if the board were A63 I could put him on 63 just as easily as A6, as he's in the BB, right? Perhaps more towards 63 than A6, because he's more likely to raise PF with A6 than 63.

When BB caps the flop, I've decided that I need to improve my hand, somehow. I'm not sure exactly how... I mean, if it were HU and he had T8, then I need to hit an A or a K. If he had A8, then I need a K or a T. If he had AT then I only have K's avaialble to me, or running 8's.

"Hidden Outs" tend to be much more available on the turn than the flop, afaik... anyone who can correct me on this, I would really appreciate it.

If either of these guys have a set, I'm in real trouble here, but I'm not going anywhere just yet, getting 7.25:1.

However, it looks like I'm in the middle of a storm here, with both of these guys having a better hand than I do.

On the turn, I'm pretty convinced that I'm looking at something like set over set, or set vs 2pr, with the BB being on the crappy end of it. It's possible, but really rare, that they both have 2pr. It's possible that one guy's crazy and the other only has 2pr, but again, that's going to be relatively rare, so I'm folding for one bet here: pot: 13.25bb, less rake.

SmileyPSU 08-25-2005 10:44 PM

Re: Preflop Limp-re-raising trouble
 
Is it ever proper to limp-reraise preflop? Since I started playing seriously in January up until now I can honestly say I have never done this once. I understand the value of switching up your play but I just don't see how it could ever be +EV at these limits.

Are there situations that the limp reraise is appropriate or should I continue avoiding that play like the plague?

Paxosmotic 08-25-2005 11:03 PM

Re: Preflop Limp-re-raising trouble
 
[ QUOTE ]
Is it ever proper to limp-reraise preflop? Since I started playing seriously in January up until now I can honestly say I have never done this once. I understand the value of switching up your play but I just don't see how it could ever be +EV at these limits.

Are there situations that the limp reraise is appropriate or should I continue avoiding that play like the plague?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah if you limp on the button with a hand like 87s and one of the blind raises, it can then be correct to reraise to take back the hand, so to speak.

SmileyPSU 08-25-2005 11:12 PM

Re: Preflop Limp-re-raising trouble
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is it ever proper to limp-reraise preflop? Since I started playing seriously in January up until now I can honestly say I have never done this once. I understand the value of switching up your play but I just don't see how it could ever be +EV at these limits.

Are there situations that the limp reraise is appropriate or should I continue avoiding that play like the plague?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah if you limp on the button with a hand like 87s and one of the blind raises, it can then be correct to reraise to take back the hand, so to speak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand the rational, but this seems more applicable in a shorthanded situation where a blind might be sensing that we are weak.

Would the limp reraise be at all applicable in a ring game where 4 people limp, we limp w/87s on button, SB completes, and BB then raises? Once the field gets trapped for a second bet would we want them all pumping in a third?

I guess I'm asking could the limp reraise from LP ever be for value against a large field?

08-25-2005 11:27 PM

Re: Preflop Limp-re-raising trouble
 
Only limp re-raise if your EP raises are getting too much respect (making everyone fold). And don't do it every time with your QQ-AA, AKs, and whatever - just a couple times to advertise.

Paxosmotic 08-25-2005 11:59 PM

Re: Preflop Limp-re-raising trouble
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is it ever proper to limp-reraise preflop? Since I started playing seriously in January up until now I can honestly say I have never done this once. I understand the value of switching up your play but I just don't see how it could ever be +EV at these limits.

Are there situations that the limp reraise is appropriate or should I continue avoiding that play like the plague?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah if you limp on the button with a hand like 87s and one of the blind raises, it can then be correct to reraise to take back the hand, so to speak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand the rational, but this seems more applicable in a shorthanded situation where a blind might be sensing that we are weak.

Would the limp reraise be at all applicable in a ring game where 4 people limp, we limp w/87s on button, SB completes, and BB then raises? Once the field gets trapped for a second bet would we want them all pumping in a third?

I guess I'm asking could the limp reraise from LP ever be for value against a large field?

[/ QUOTE ]
That's what I mean, against a large field. In a blind steal you're raising or folding every time. If there's 4 limpers to you on the button, you call with 87s, then the big blind raises, if everyone calls, I like to raise right there to take the lead in the hand. Unless the big blind has a monster, there is a very good chance the flop will be checked to you or at the very least that you'll be facing a single easily called bet, making many draws playable.

DavidC 08-26-2005 01:02 AM

Re: Preflop Limp-re-raising trouble
 
[ QUOTE ]
Is it ever proper to limp-reraise preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's kinda the whole point of the post. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

To answer your question definitively, I can tell you with absolute authority, that I do not know.

[ QUOTE ]
Are there situations that the limp reraise is appropriate or should I continue avoiding that play like the plague?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's my opinion, without any real base of knowledge:

1) I think it's probably appropriate in the game of poker, somewhere.

2) It would be uncommon at Party's 2/4 game, but would be more prevalent at Paradise's 5/10 to 8/16 or at Poker Room's 2/4 to 3/6.

3) If it is ever the appropriate play, I'm not sure how much EV is lost by raising outright, but probably not much.

Edit: Also more prevalent during the day than the evening.

DavidC 08-26-2005 01:04 AM

Re: Preflop Limp-re-raising trouble
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is it ever proper to limp-reraise preflop? Since I started playing seriously in January up until now I can honestly say I have never done this once. I understand the value of switching up your play but I just don't see how it could ever be +EV at these limits.

Are there situations that the limp reraise is appropriate or should I continue avoiding that play like the plague?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah if you limp on the button with a hand like 87s and one of the blind raises, it can then be correct to reraise to take back the hand, so to speak.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) I meant in EP.

2) SWEEEEEET!


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