Taking The Opposite Side (kinda long?)
 

I want to look at both sides of the same hand. The first side I'm very confident in my play. If you have something to add, please feel free.

(For those who don't recognize it, this hand was inspired by KaneKungFu)

FIRST SIDE: Against the Typical TAG

Stars 1/2 NL, effective stacks $200 all around.

UTG is a typical learning TAG, who tends to nut-peddle. Opens pot for $10. All fold to Hero on the button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hero calls, blinds fold.

2 to the flop for $23. Flop comes 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

UTG bets $23.

In this scenario, against this opponent, I push. I don't mind if he calls, but given his playing style, he folds frequently. Now, assuming that everyone's on board with this plan, let's move on to the other side of the hand...

The second side of this hand I'm not so sure about.

SECOND SIDE: Against a Good (Enough) Player

Same exact hand, but now Hero is the UTG player with about what you'd expect: a high pockket pair.

Stars 1/2 NL, effective stacks $200 all around.

Hero has K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] UTG, and opens for $10. Only the button calls. The button is a decent to excellent player who will not mage egregious postflop errors (edit).

2 to the flop for $23. Flop comes 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

What's Hero's action?

I'm thinking big overbet of perhaps $50, or maybe even push right now. What do you think? I don't want to give Btn the reigns, and my hand desperately needs protection. Consiidering that a bet of $50 leaves me with $140 in what will be a ~$123 pot, I'm inclined to push.

Edited line 2 read on button for clarity.

Re: Taking The Opposite Side (kinda long?)
 

Just pot it and fold if he pushes. That lines will suit you very well in these games.

Re: Taking The Opposite Side (kinda long?)
 

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That lines will suit you very well in these games.

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Please explain this a bit, as I suspect it provides some needed context.

Re: Taking The Opposite Side (kinda long?)
 

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That lines will suit you very well in these games.

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Please explain this a bit, as I suspect it provides some needed context.

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Basically it is just because people are usually passive in these spots with hands that you're crushing like TT. So they will call a pot bet. And a lot of people are passive even with massive draws. So you are charging draws, and he probably has a set or straight if he is pushing. Best case scenario he has a massive draw that you are not ahead of. If you make the flop JsTs3c instead of your flop then I think you should pot it and call a push because a set of jacks or tens is less likely since they would have raised preflop and people will limp and then call raise with AT and AJ and then overplay one pair on the flop. And if he has JT, you have several outs. But it all depends, of course.

Re: Taking The Opposite Side (kinda long?)
 

hand 1 just call, dont push

hand 2 bet the pot, take it from there

Re: Taking The Opposite Side (kinda long?)
 

Your line with KK is a little extreme I think.
Villain up to this point has put in $10 total, your throwing your entire stack at him. 20x what he invested.
Are you hoping Villain will put you on a draw and call with a lesser hand?

Re: Taking The Opposite Side (kinda long?)
 

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hand 1 just call, dont push

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Why? Remember, UTG is a nut-peddler.

Re: Taking The Opposite Side (kinda long?)
 

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hand 1 just call, dont push

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Why? Remember, UTG is a nut-peddler.

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goot call, i read that was lag, dunno why!
nh.

Re: Taking The Opposite Side (kinda long?)
 

wow....ok

Example 1, I don't mind pushing here, but you don't have an OESFD...it's a gutshot+flush draw so you have 4 less outs which makes you closer to a coinflip than being ahead of a large pair. I still like the push though.

Example 2 - open pushing is HORRIBLE. You basically make it impossible for him to make a mistake.....he's probably folding all non-set, non-straight hands....he's probably calling with sets, 2 pair, straights, and combo draws which you are at best slightly ahead of and at worst slightly behind. So if your goal in example 2 is to guarantee your opponent plays correctly and thus break the fundamental theory of poker, then you should absolutely push here.

I played against a guy at $100 NL that pulled a similar stunt. He raised preflop, i flat called with 33, flop comes 3 5 6 with 2 of a suit, and he open pushes for $400 with AA...i happily call with $300 and double through....see my point...i'm not calling that bet with anything other than the set, straight, 2 pair, or SF draw...all of which are ahead of villain....open pushing is horrible. Lead for the pot, make a decision based on what he does.

Re: Taking The Opposite Side (kinda long?)
 

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I played against a guy at $100 NL that pulled a similar stunt. He raised preflop, i flat called with 33, flop comes 3 5 6 with 2 of a suit, and he open pushes for $400 with AA...i happily call with $300 and double through....see my point

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Yes, I absolutely see your point.

And I acknowledge that the times when the button flops a big made hand, we are getting stacked.

But that alone does not make pushing a bad play here. The only thing that ultimately matters is the EV of all the possible plays. Sometimes we lost becasue the opponent flops big. But other times -- far more frequently -- the opponent flops rags and we win the ~$50 pot.

Now, I edited my original post to indicate that the button will not make egregious postflop errors. Given the coordinated nature of this board, most postflop errors will be egregious. There won't be many marginal decisions here. So we may conclude that the opponentr won't be mmaking many mistakes here, no matter what we do.

Given that, don't we want to bring this hand to a close immediately?

Can anyone give me a probability range for the opponent here? This is my estimate:

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Flopped big hand, like a set: 10%
Flopped big draw, like 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]: 10%
Flopped marginal made hand, like 20%
Flopped rags/weak draw, like 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 60%

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