KQs, how was this hand ?
 

i didn't have many hands played at this table but enough to see UTG seemed loose.

Ultimate Bet 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO (poster) calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG caps</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (17.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.


Turn: (10.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 folds, CO folds, UTG calls.

River: (14.75 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 16.75 BB

my thought process (likely flawed, since i suck and am still learning) was to cold-call preflop (rather than reraise, which is what i'd normally have done) in hopes of more action.

flop - pot was big so i called
turn - i reraise for value and semi-bluff ?
river - hit a K and pretty sure i had the hand.

thoughts ? terrible ? acceptable ?
thanks. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

edit: thinking back now, since i knew UTG was loose i think i should have reraised to isolate.? a big part of why i chose to call , is that i had just got done reading something about the benefit of playing KQs this way occasionally (at least i thought i did, but i'm dumb) and that affected my decision preflop, also i think i am too aggressive in my play and trying to fix that and it seemed a good thing at the time.
most concerned with flop/post-flop though.

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

Your turn raise is not for value, and is not a good semi bluff.

Rest of the hand is fine.

Edit: Woah missed preflop. Fold this preflop. Damn, I don't know why I assumed it was a normal preflop. That makes the flop not so good either.

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

No poker in OO...

Wait a minute. This isn't OOT. Gorie plays poker?

Just giving you a hard time [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

As for the hand, you should seldom be the first to cold call. Ever. If you don't have a good sense for what UTG is raising, I'd probably fold, really. I'd want another cold caller or two before I cold call.

That flop is probably a fold given that there's a cap preflop. All your outs are horribly dirty, even in this giant pot. You might be drawing to your backdoor flush only.

On that turn, I just call. You're not folding the field with your semibluff. It's not a semibluff unless you can fold them all. You're better off just seeing the river for cheap.

Since you made it to the river, this is good. I guess your raise probably folded MP's AK, which saved the day. I think that you lucked out pretty fiercely on this hand.

ps. SIIHP. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

I think you should have 3-bet preflop if you put him as loose. How loose though? I also disagree with that the outs are tainted. The flop call isnt bad. You got more than enough odds to call that. Now the turn is interesting. I think this play is good if you have some folding equity from AK, AQ, small pps AND its HU.

The problem is that eventhough you fold out 2 people I dont think you are good enough without improving on the river. So I would probably call trying for overcalls.

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

thanks for the replies, makes sense.

to explain my preflop - normally i would reraise here, i thought i knew better than to be the first to cold call. anyway, i will now be smart enough to also fold here. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

but i had just got done reading some HEPFAP on early position before playing and this was stuck in my head at the time
"if you follow the above guidlines you will mainly be playing only group 1 and 2 hands against and early position raiser. however, against the aforementioned loose raiser you should go ahead an dplay AQ, 99, and 88, and probably reraise with them. (you should also be reraise with the group 1 and group 2 hands with the exception of AJs and KQs which are still best to just call with)."

of course, i forgot the emphasized part "for this to be correct your judgement must be accurate. if you are not sure it is probably best to throw these additional hands away".

[img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

I don't think the preflop cold call is that bad at all. SSH recomends cold calling KQs from early position, I'm assuming this means sometimes before there are even 2 people in. however, depending on your read you can definitely make the case for a fold or 3-bet.

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

I'd fold this one preflop unless i have a good read on UTG.

The flop call is close, but i think it is ok. If you count your overcards as 2.5 outs, then you do have about 4 outs with your bdfd. I think that is enough even against those preflop raises.

The pot is extremely large and you do have chances to win it.

SSHE says in large pots you should continue even when you suspect you are drawing dead.

The turn-raise isn't for value. It's not good to semi-bluff here either. But there's something that just came up in my mind and i'm not sure if my thinking is correct, but:

1. With your fd the pot is large enough to call.

2. Even if UTG 3-bets you have to pay 3 bets to win a pot of at least 13.75, giving you 4.58:1.

3. CO and/or (more likely) MP1 easily could have AK or AQ.

Point 1 forces you to not fold.

Point 2 says you don't have to fear UTG 3-betting too much.

So what does point 3 tell you?

Well if one or both really do have AK and/or AQ, your raise might buy you 2 (maybe even 4) outs, if it makes them fold those hands.

This raise could win you the hand!!!

Any opinions on that?

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your turn raise is not for value, and is not a good semi bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think this is good, because we can buy some K outs. It's value in the sense that MHIG when we fold MP1's AK.

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

Are we buying enough clean outs to be worth the amount of money we are losing with this raise? I really doubt it.

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are we buying enough clean outs to be worth the amount of money we are losing with this raise? I really doubt it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. I'm folding twice preflop, and I'm calling this turn.

You're going to lose a lot of money getting 3-bet on this turn as well.

Edit: I can be enticed to check behind on the river too.

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are we buying enough clean outs to be worth the amount of money we are losing with this raise? I really doubt it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah true, but this is a semi-bluff, not a pure bluff. We have a draw here. Another thing we might be getting out of this raise is a free showdown if we miss our draw on the river. These are paper-thin reasons, but I think they add up.

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

A free showdown? Why? There's no way we have the best hand right now. I guess we can see a couple of cards, but nothing he's holding will bring any chips in our direction UI. We're either betting the river because we hit something, or we are getting a free showdown because open-folding takes two clicks, while checking just takes one.

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your turn raise is not for value, and is not a good semi bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think this is good, because we can buy some K outs. It's value in the sense that MHIG when we fold MP1's AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thought I'd throw this in. At best your reraise buys 3 outs (and I mean at very best). If the raise buys 3 clean outs 100% of the time, you're only getting back about .8 BBs for your one. Now double check my math for me:

3 outs are worth approximately 6.5% (14.3:1 dog) of 12.75BB = .83BB

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

Good math. This is exactly the sort of thing that you need to be able to do.

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

I spent way to long trying to remember this hand, figuring it from the 2+2game today, since I would have been UTG, when you were UTG1 ... then I saw UB 1/2 and felt superstupid

anyway
I don't coldcall here preflop, how loose he is isn't the main question, its how aggressive he is .. also with a poster in the hand, when you 3bet often you will endup sandwiched and often forced into a lot of tough decisions

and I just call the turn as well, UTG will rarely have a hand that he folds to the turn raise, since UTG raise/cap lines are pretty big signs of strength

since he won't fold very often, and his range doesn't make your K and Q outs live that often, I think you are better served to call, and try to get overcalls .. since you most likely only win this with a flush.

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

ok, i see my first post now, im happy

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
No poker in OO...

Wait a minute. This isn't OOT. Gorie plays poker?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly my reaction. Complete with double checking to see what forum I was in.

Edit: Welcome to the forum Gorie.

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

Turn raise is a maniacs play.

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

I really like the raise on the turn. You at least have pot odds to call this on down.

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your turn raise is not for value, and is not a good semi bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]
Preflop sucks, but yeah we'll over look that.

The turn raise is good IMO as you are buying both K and Q outs the times you get the preflop 3-bettor to fold AQ/AK by facing him with two cold.

To the guy talking about a free showdown raise, you are wrong because we don't have a hand with showdown value. The raise on the turn is purely for buying outs because given the pot size and our already solid draw the times we buy 2-4 more outs is very much worth the 1 bb investment.

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

grunching

Pre-flop is fine in this particular case, even though I normally either folds or 3-bets.
Flop, since UTG capped his range is something like QQ-AA or AKs. It means you outs to top pair are very tainted. I'll give you at the max 3 outs here, so I guess a call is ok. I don't think a raise does any good here.
Turn, you catch another club. Since there's not much of a reason to protect your overs, I'd suggest a smooth call here.
River, your semi bluff seemed to work. I suggest you take the free showdown since you're likely behind.

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

ok, now it seems there is a fairly unanimous frown of disdain at this cold call, but no one seems to be providing much explaination other than it's bad without more cold callers first.
but why ??

trust me, I don't cold call very often but this is a circumstance where I'm considering it.

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

I don't like the cold call preflop. Too likely to be dominated, and without a read that you'll get lots of cold-callers behind you, I'm not sure it's +EV.

I think the flop call was probably bad because the PF 3-bettor is behind you and might easily raise. If you knew you could see the turn for 1 bet, then maybe.

Turn raise is not for value.

The river I REALLY don't get. What hand does UTG cap pre-flop with, that you are beating here? He's probably wedded to his AA or KK or AK, and is pissed you hit your A5s or something stupid like that. I see him capping with AA, KK, QQ, AKs, AKo. Maybe AQs too. QQ and AQs are the only hands you're beating here, but you bet the river. I just don't get it, unless you think your only chance of winning is to bet, and hope he folds....

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Thought I'd throw this in. At best your reraise buys 3 outs (and I mean at very best). If the raise buys 3 clean outs 100% of the time, you're only getting back about .8 BBs for your one. Now double check my math for me:

3 outs are worth approximately 6.5% (14.3:1 dog) of 12.75BB = .83BB

[/ QUOTE ]

quoted for emphasis. Turn raise is poor. Buying outs is nice, but it's not worth it here.

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
but i had just got done reading some HEPFAP on early position before playing and this was stuck in my head at the time
"if you follow the above guidlines you will mainly be playing only group 1 and 2 hands against and early position raiser. however, against the aforementioned loose raiser you should go ahead an dplay AQ, 99, and 88, and probably reraise with them. (you should also be reraise with the group 1 and group 2 hands with the exception of AJs and KQs which are still best to just call with)."

[/ QUOTE ]

There's also a huge difference between "loose player" and "loose raiser".

I don't even know if I agree with the claim that you should be coldcalling these hands. It could be a higher-level "induce more mistakes from villain postflop" sort of move, or it could be not wanting to overcommit money in the pot with the potential of being OOP in a capped pot against a better hand. Or it could be suggesting that you don't 3-bet with a player caught in the middle, but that's rare since you're in early position which is defined to be 3 seats left of the big blind.

If anyone wants to try to hash out an argument for coldcalling, I'd be interested in reading it.

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but i had just got done reading some HEPFAP on early position before playing and this was stuck in my head at the time
"if you follow the above guidlines you will mainly be playing only group 1 and 2 hands against and early position raiser. however, against the aforementioned loose raiser you should go ahead an dplay AQ, 99, and 88, and probably reraise with them. (you should also be reraise with the group 1 and group 2 hands with the exception of AJs and KQs which are still best to just call with)."

[/ QUOTE ]

There's also a huge difference between "loose player" and "loose raiser".

I don't even know if I agree with the claim that you should be coldcalling these hands. It could be a higher-level "induce more mistakes from villain postflop" sort of move, or it could be not wanting to overcommit money in the pot with the potential of being OOP in a capped pot against a better hand. Or it could be suggesting that you don't 3-bet with a player caught in the middle, but that's rare since you're in early position which is defined to be 3 seats left of the big blind.

If anyone wants to try to hash out an argument for coldcalling, I'd be interested in reading it.

[/ QUOTE ]

hey aaron -

if the table conditions were such that you could expect a bunch of other coldcallers i'd rather coldcall with KQs versus a loose player (who isn't a loose raiser). the reason being that in all lieklyhood i am behind and need to catchup postflop, and having several others in the pot is good for me in that case. against a loose raiser, i'd be 3-betting.

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

[ QUOTE ]

There's also a huge difference between "loose player" and "loose raiser".

[/ QUOTE ]

poker tracker was showing him as LAP , i was thinking "loose raiser" from what i saw at the table so far. but i wasn't at the table long enough to really be certain.

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

Grunch:

Given everything you said, I think the turn raise was still a really bad move.

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There's also a huge difference between "loose player" and "loose raiser".

I don't even know if I agree with the claim that you should be coldcalling these hands. It could be a higher-level "induce more mistakes from villain postflop" sort of move, or it could be not wanting to overcommit money in the pot with the potential of being OOP in a capped pot against a better hand. Or it could be suggesting that you don't 3-bet with a player caught in the middle, but that's rare since you're in early position which is defined to be 3 seats left of the big blind.

If anyone wants to try to hash out an argument for coldcalling, I'd be interested in reading it.

[/ QUOTE ]

hey aaron -

if the table conditions were such that you could expect a bunch of other coldcallers i'd rather coldcall with KQs versus a loose player (who isn't a loose raiser). the reason being that in all lieklyhood i am behind and need to catchup postflop, and having several others in the pot is good for me in that case. against a loose raiser, i'd be 3-betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll buy that argument. But that's not the situation presented in HPFAP. I'll requote it here with some bold added:

[ QUOTE ]
"if you follow the above guidlines you will mainly be playing only group 1 and 2 hands against and early position raiser. however, against the aforementioned loose raiser you should go ahead an dplay AQ, 99, and 88, and probably reraise with them. (you should also be reraise with the group 1 and group 2 hands with the exception of AJs and KQs which are still best to just call with)."

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Grunch:

Given everything you said, I think the turn raise was still a really bad move.

[/ QUOTE ]
hmm, yeah so that's probably why everyone was making comments after the hand about how much i suck and that they were makin notes, etc. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

There's also a huge difference between "loose player" and "loose raiser".

[/ QUOTE ]

poker tracker was showing him as LAP , i was thinking "loose raiser" from what i saw at the table so far. but i wasn't at the table long enough to really be certain.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO, the ratings are pretty meaningless. You're much better off just looking at the stats. There's a big difference between a player who's 80/40/0.5 and one who's 40/15/0.5, and both of those players can be rated LAP. Granted, stats are far from everything you should be reading about the player, but the ratings do little more for me than add a pretty picture on my HUD.

Re: KQs, how was this hand ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There's also a huge difference between "loose player" and "loose raiser".

I don't even know if I agree with the claim that you should be coldcalling these hands. It could be a higher-level "induce more mistakes from villain postflop" sort of move, or it could be not wanting to overcommit money in the pot with the potential of being OOP in a capped pot against a better hand. Or it could be suggesting that you don't 3-bet with a player caught in the middle, but that's rare since you're in early position which is defined to be 3 seats left of the big blind.

If anyone wants to try to hash out an argument for coldcalling, I'd be interested in reading it.

[/ QUOTE ]

hey aaron -

if the table conditions were such that you could expect a bunch of other coldcallers i'd rather coldcall with KQs versus a loose player (who isn't a loose raiser). the reason being that in all lieklyhood i am behind and need to catchup postflop, and having several others in the pot is good for me in that case. against a loose raiser, i'd be 3-betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll buy that argument. But that's not the situation presented in HPFAP. I'll requote it here with some bold added:

[ QUOTE ]
"if you follow the above guidlines you will mainly be playing only group 1 and 2 hands against and early position raiser. however, against the aforementioned loose raiser you should go ahead an dplay AQ, 99, and 88, and probably reraise with them. (you should also be reraise with the group 1 and group 2 hands with the exception of AJs and KQs which are still best to just call with)."

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

right. i don't fully understand the reasoning behind the HEFAP situation. it has been a year since i read the book too, so i should reread it i think.

maybe this:

if he's presenting a situation where the players yet to act behind you are smart enough to not call 2 bets cold, then perhaps the equity of KQs (or AJs) vs a loose raiser it not so high that we are willing to 3-bet and go headsup, and would prefer (for equity reasons) to have the pot be 3-way with us, the raiser, and the BB (who is likely to call). and if BB folds, then we aren't in horrendous shape. i see however, that what i just wrote contradicts the reasoning in my previous post.

intuitively it doesn't make a lot of sense, but honestly i don't remember what the "group 1" and "group 2" hands are - are KQs and AJs the weakest in those groups?

or is there an additional read on that specific "loose raiser" from HEFAP? is he known to play well postflop? or maybe only give action on certain streets?