Calling preflop raises after limping: How to exploit & avoid
 

In LL games I regularly see that 5 players will limp in, get raised by an LP, and then all of the players will call. It looks something like this: limp, limp, limp, limp, limp, raise, call, call, call, call, call.

Two questions:

1. How do I exploit this? One idea is to raise for value in LP with drawing hands (e.g., 77, QJs).

2. How do I avoid this problem? Which hands should I fold to a preflop raiser after limping in?

Thx.

Re: Calling preflop raises after limping: How to exploit & avoid
 

Hiya mdlm,

I'm pretty much a newbie like yourself, but I'll chip in my two cents here:

1) How do I exploit this? You suggested what I do -- raise on my drawing hands as well as my strong hands. If I hit, I might as well make some money on it.

2) How do I avoid this problem? I try not to limp with hands that should be folded to a single raise behind them. In general, I feel that if I want to fold to a single raise, I shouldn't have limped with it in the first place.

Just my 2c,
PP

Re: Calling preflop raises after limping: How to exploit & avoid
 

On the original call, you are getting 3, 4 or 5 to 1. On the call of the raise, you are getting 11 to 1. What hands will you play getting 3 to 1 odds, that you won't play for 11 to 1. Obviously, if it was right to call the limp, it is right to call the raise.

The only situation where you would consider folding, after calling the blinds, is where it comes back to you for three bets, because now you know that there are potentially multiple big hands out there, so you are behind unless you have a premium hand. In fact, now some hands that you might limp with, say AJ off, are likely in a lot of trouble, because you might not have many outs. Additionally, the presence of a raise and three bettor, likely means that the hand will be contested on the flop, so the price you have to pay to see the turn has also just gone up. So you might fold to a threebet if you had just limped in originally.

If you want to take advantage of the limpers, the way to do it is to threebet the raiser, and create some dead money in the pot. But you have to have a hand that can compete with the raiser here.

Good Luck,
Play Well,

Bob T.

Re: Calling preflop raises after limping: How to exploit & avoid
 

1) you already said it. Raise good drawing hands like suited connectors and pairs, raise other premium hands as you would normally.

2) None. You shouldn't limp into a hand where you're not willing to call a raise behind you. This is why LP is so good, limping here you have much fewer people to worry about raising behind you which is a major reason you can play a lot more hands. Calling after it's been 3-bet back to you is another story.

So, Mr "newbie chronicles", are you now playing some LL ring games? Or is this just watching from the sidelines?

Re: Calling preflop raises after limping: How to exploit & avoid
 

In that situation, I can't think of a single hand that I'd fold to a single raise after limping in.

However, there are a lot of hands I won't limp with in this kind of game that I might play in other situations as well as hands I might play that I wouldn't otherwise.

I'm much more inclined to limp in with something like 89s in this kind of game than others. If I'm late, I'll raise with hands like JTs, A4s. I'll definitely play any pocket pair. I'll avoid big unsuited cards here - KJo is just about my least favorite hand here. Of course, if I did accidentally limp in with KTo, there's no question that I would call one more bet if it came around with everyone calling.

Re: Calling preflop raises after limping: How to exploit & avoid
 

"2. How do I avoid this problem? Which hands should I fold to a preflop raiser after limping in?"

none....if you voluntarily limped, your hand should be able to withstand a raise behind it. if it cant, you shouldnt have limped in the first place.

b

Bad reasoning
 

On the original call, you are getting 3, 4 or 5 to 1. On the call of the raise, you are getting 11 to 1. What hands will you play getting 3 to 1 odds, that you won't play for 11 to 1. Obviously, if it was right to call the limp, it is right to call the raise.

This analysis is incorrect. Using this analysis you would _never_ fold to a single raise on any street after betting since your odds _always_ improve.

Re: Bad reasoning
 

What hands would you call with getting 3:1 but fold for 5.5:1?

Once the action is back to you, what information do you have other than your immediate pot odds?

Re: Calling preflop raises after limping: How to exploit & avoid
 

Before the flop. if it was correct to limp in and now you call a raise for one more bet, you are playing correctly. There are virtually no hands that you would fold in this spot for one more bet.

But you do fold some of these hands when in the blind if someone raises. There are two reasons for this. First, there is no additional blind money in the pot (since you are the blind). Second, it looks natural to fold the blind and thus doesn't encourage players to take shots at you.

Here's an example. Suppose you call with AJ UTG and are immediately raised by the player on your left. Without discussing the rest of the action, you should be prepared to call for one more bet. However, if you held this same hand in the big blind against this exact same raiser, you might (and often should) fold.

MM

Re: Bad reasoning
 

No, he's right.

Pre-flop, there are no board cards out. So if your odds increase from 3-1 up to 11-1, you should obviously still call.

Post-flop, the board dictates what odds you need to continue. You might be getting 18-1, but if your only out is to a runner-runner flush, you need 23-1 to call.