Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

After watching our Presidents speech tonite im very happy that at one time this country had some competent leadership which was able to aquire enough power and security that I should be able to skate through the rest of my life in relative comfort.

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

Really? So who is your favorite president? Richard Nixon? Jimmy Carter? Maybe Gerald Ford? I wonder how much "power and security" we earned by selling Iran weapons in the 80's (Iran-Contra), or by losing Vietnam to the enemy.

I'm not saying that Bush is competent, but I don't see how anybody can say that all of our past leaders were competent. Anybody that knows middle-school history can see that America has been through worse in the last fifty years, MUCH worse.

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

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Anybody that knows middle-school history can see that America has been through worse in the last fifty years, MUCH worse.

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Apparently not anyone.... I can't see that. We've never been on the edge of quite so many precipices at one time.... like on a butte that is getting narrower while we're getting bigger.

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

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I'm not saying that Bush is competent, but I don't see how anybody can say that all of our past leaders were competent. Anybody that knows middle-school history can see that America has been through worse in the last fifty years, MUCH worse.

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Yeah weve been through much worse, thats my point. Can you imagine Bush handling the Cuban missle affair? Can you possibly imagine Bush sitting down with any of the Soviet leaders privatly and not getting bitchslapped?

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

The most "competent" presidents have also been the most sinister. Lincoln, FDR, Truman, Jackson, Wilson, etc...

I would rather have a half-wit like Bush in office. At least he doesn't possess the ability to screw things up too badly.

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

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I would rather have a half-wit like Bush in office. At least he doesn't possess the ability to screw things up too badly.

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Huh? You consider having the whole world pissed at us as not screwing things up too badly?

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

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I would rather have a half-wit like Bush in office. At least he doesn't possess the ability to screw things up too badly.

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Huh? You consider having the whole world pissed at us as not screwing things up too badly?

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Relative to what others have done, yes.

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

FDR was mostly the man. Clinton wasn't totally awful either. He sort of bought into the conservative policies, but at least he wasn't a absolute moron.

I think Clinton did everything he could with the political situation he faced. People like Al From and the DLC have tried hard to reinterpret that legacy to make it more conservative.

FDR was pretty much the best President ever.

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

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I think Clinton did everything he could with the political situation he faced. People like Al From and the DLC have tried hard to reinterpret that legacy to make it more conservative.

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We are talking about politicians here, right? The less they do, the better. That is why Clinton was 'good'. Whether it was his own doing or the fact that the Republicans held the Congress, I'm not sure. All I know is that less legislation was passed, which is always a good thing.

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FDR was pretty much the best President ever.

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My sarcasm detector is pretty bad. Is this a joke?

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

Just because you're some tripped out anarchist, that does not mean that everybody on this forum is. Instead of buying a new sarcasm detector, some common-sense judgement may be a better investment for you.

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

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Just because you're some tripped out anarchist, that does not mean that everybody on this forum is. Instead of buying a new sarcasm detector, some common-sense judgement may be a better investment for you.

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My common-sense judgement is fine (obviously I was being facetious). Anyone with common-sense should realize that FDR did more to hurt America (overall at least, Lincoln was the biggest murderer) than any other president.

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

No, FDR stopped the great depression and also played a kew role in winning WWII. He was totally aweseome.

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

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Just because you're some tripped out anarchist, that does not mean that everybody on this forum is. Instead of buying a new sarcasm detector, some common-sense judgement may be a better investment for you.

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Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

If it wasn't for Lincoln, the entire country...well, it wouldn't be a country anymore.

Do you also think that we're a republic, not a democracy? You have a membership card in the John Birch Society?

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

we are a republic, not a democracy.

Am i not understanding you?

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

one of you is pro-government intervention one is not, why do you have to be so god damn bitter.

Newsflash nobody on this board has all the answers, and even with evidence to support theories of government no one here can prove one is "better" so disagree or debate or something, but clearly just calling each other dickheads serves no purpose.

edit: not directed at OP

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

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No, FDR stopped the great depression and also played a kew role in winning WWII. He was totally aweseome.

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HAHAHAHA.

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

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No, FDR stopped the great depression and also played a kew role in winning WWII. He was totally aweseome.

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HAHAHAHA.

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FDR got us out of the depression by getting us into WWII, but he did certainly play a key role in winning it. However his covert intelligence operations in furtherance of involving us in the european side, and which might have been illegal in some respects, would have rated a serious congressional inquiry had they been known at the time. Nonetheless it was the right thing to do both for our longterm interests and that of the world.

Most of his domestic economic policies in the 1930s though were largely ineffectual, but he was trying and most importantly did succeed in boosting the morale of the majority who were very bad off. And although a rich man, he truly does seem to have "felt their pain", unlike Clinton who was just a huckster with no principles he would not compromise in order to get and retain power.

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

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After watching our Presidents speech tonite im very happy that at one time this country had some competent leadership which was able to aquire enough power and security that I should be able to skate through the rest of my life in relative comfort.

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Bush has principles and clear policies, it is just that you don't agree with them. But in trying to accomplish those policies he does a good job, especially in prioritizing the various threats facing this country.

The fact of the matter is that the economy is doing well and democrats are still considered by most voters to be weak on defense issues. That means they have no real agenda. There are legitimate criticisms of Bush's governing style, but they pale in contrast to the vaccuum that is the democratic party leadership in Congress.

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

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No, FDR stopped the great depression and also played a kew role in winning WWII. He was totally aweseome.


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Well, you have confirmed that you have an elementary understanding of American history, but I had already picked that up from your previous posts.

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If it wasn't for Lincoln, the entire country...well, it wouldn't be a country anymore.



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More proof of your all or nothing view of historical topics. Lincoln was not indispensible.

For the record, both FDR and Lincoln were good presidents, but time and war cured the depression, and the northerners who elected Lincoln made the decision to put a stop to the growth of slavery and keep the country united.


by the way, has anyone discussed the parellels between Lincolon (habeus corpus) and Bush (wire tapping)?

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

Truman > Bush41 = the cold war presidents

Clinton = the gap president (lets call him the Neville Chamberlain of US Presidents)

Bush43 > several future presidents = the new cold war (against terror) line of presidents

Like Truman, Bush43 will be more appreciated from a historical view, in his role as first of a line of Presidents who eventually defeated terrorism.

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

I think waxie should be cut a little slack as it sounds like his understanding of American history comes solely from what he was taught in public school.

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

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No, FDR stopped the great depression

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HAW HAW HAW... oh, you're serious?

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

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No, FDR stopped the great depression

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HAW HAW HAW... oh, you're serious?

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Skim his term paper thread. He's serious.

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

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If it wasn't for Lincoln, the entire country...well, it wouldn't be a country anymore.

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And why is that desirable? Is it bad that the USSR dissolved?

Lincoln is worse than FDR in my book. He murdered 600,000 americans in a war of conquest against a nation that espoused the same concepts the US originally did with the Declaration of Independence. His motivation was nothing less than the most noble goal of mercantilism, the most wrongheaded economic policy this nation had ever seen. He gave legitimacy to the barbaric concept of total war. He ushered in the era of big government - the first true manifestation of Hamilton's twisted vision of big central government.

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

"And why is that desirable? Is it bad that the USSR dissolved?" According to a growing number of the former inhabitants, yes.

But wait, I always forget in your little "AC" fantasy camp, everyone behaves exactly how you DICTATE they will.

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

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If it wasn't for Lincoln, the entire country...well, it wouldn't be a country anymore.

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And why is that desirable? Is it bad that the USSR dissolved?


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What do you think the world would look like today if there were both a USA and a CSA?

Would the CSA still have slavery, or just some form of Jim Crow?

How would it affect the economies of both?

How would it affect the outcomes of foreign wars like WWII, etc.?

I think the world would be a lot worse off.

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

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He murdered 600,000 americans in a war of conquest against a nation that espoused the same concepts the US originally did with the Declaration of Independence.

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Technically, the South started the war at Ft. Sumter. And that "nation" espoused slavery, something you don't seem to like.

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

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He murdered 600,000 americans in a war of conquest against a nation that espoused the same concepts the US originally did with the Declaration of Independence.

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Technically, the South started the war at Ft. Sumter. And that "nation" espoused slavery, something you don't seem to like.

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The US had forces in CS teritorry and refused to remove them. Are you guilty of a crime if you find a trespasser on your territory and act to remove him?

As for slavery, the US espoused slavery at the time of the Declaration. Lincoln had no intentions of ending slavery. He's on record as saying the white race is superior, and that his goal is to re-unify. He did say he would end slavery if that would help him achieve his goal, but he would also continue it if that would help him achieve his goal.

Slavery is a side issue. It existed all over the world, and ended (on a large scale, at least) world wide without bloody multi-year conflicts.

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

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He murdered 600,000 americans in a war of conquest against a nation

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Do you become a nation just by declaring yourself to be a nation?

If so, I'd like to announce the formation of a new nation - coming soon. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

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The US had forces in CS teritorry and refused to remove them. Are you guilty of a crime if you find a trespasser on your territory and act to remove him?

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They were in U.S. territory when the CS declared them CS territory. Would you be trespassing if while you were standing somewhere someone came up to you and said "I claim that spot you're standing on. Get off."?

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Lincoln had no intentions of ending slavery.

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He also had no intentions of letting it spread into new territories.

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Slavery is a side issue. It existed all over the world, and ended (on a large scale, at least) world wide without bloody multi-year conflicts.

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Perhaps it ended world wide because of our bloody multi-year conflict?

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

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He murdered 600,000 americans in a war of conquest against a nation that espoused the same concepts the US originally did with the Declaration of Independence.

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Technically, the South started the war at Ft. Sumter. And that "nation" espoused slavery, something you don't seem to like.

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Read this (also if you use that logic then you can't really justify the American Revolution).

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"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume V, "Letter to Horace Greeley" (August 22, 1862)

-"Honest" Abe Lincoln


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Lincoln's secondary motive was to free the slaves. He had this odd primary motive of forcing people (a large group at that) to be a part of his nation, even if they wanted no part of it. I think he dressed it up with some "preserving the union" rhetoric.

This, in my estimation, is the equivalent of my girlfriend breaking up with me, me then invading her home, raping and killing her, then sleeping next to her dead corpse.

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

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He murdered 600,000 americans in a war of conquest against a nation

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Do you become a nation just by declaring yourself to be a nation?

If so, I'd like to announce the formation of a new nation - coming soon. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

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So you don't justify the American Revolution?

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

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also if you use that logic then you can't really justify the American Revolution

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Different situation.

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

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also if you use that logic then you can't really justify the American Revolution

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Different situation.

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For one, how so?


For two, did you read the rest of my thread? How can you actually justify Lincoln's actions, causing the death of over a half million men, based on "preserving the union."

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

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For one, how so?

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If I have to explain how the Revolutionary War and the Civil War's start were different, then I'd be wasting my time if I tried. But since I know that won't satisfy you:
American Revolution
Civil War

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

Ok, here is a synopsis. In both cases, a group of people was tired of being ruled by another group of people. In the case of the American Revolution, it was the King/Parliament. In the case of the Civil War, it was the Northern mob (remember, democracy is mob rule). So you believe that the colonists were more justified in opposing British power than the Confederates were in opposing Northern power? Why is this?


Also, you still have not answered my question about Lincoln. How do you justify killing over a half million men to "preserve the union"?

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

The justification is quite simple really. Keeping the southern territory was in the best interests of the United States. In the case of the Revolutionary War, it was in the best interests of the Americans to be independent, and in the best interests of the British to keep their colonies. The current administration perceives that it is in our best interests to take Iraq.

What other justification do you need? If the country is cut in half, then the chances of being destroyed by other enemies doubles. The Confederacy would have eventually gained much more power and presented a real threat to the Union. Then when the United States loses a big war, somebody like you will say that Lincoln was a bad president because he failed to protect the union, which led to its eventual defeat.

There are no "morals" or any such thing that govern whether wars are right or not. On a global scale, the world is essentially anarchy, and therefore, no justication is ever even needed to do anything, since nations do not have to answer to anybody. So stop saying that killing so many people is the reason that Lincoln was a bad president, and DO tell us why it was not in the best interests of the United States.

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

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In both cases, a group of people was tired of being ruled by another group of people.

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There's much more to it than just being "tired" of being ruled by another group of people. Before the American Revolution, the colonists had little to no representation. Before the Civil War the South DID have representation.

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How do you justify killing over a half million men to "preserve the union"?

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It was better for the U.S.'s future. It won't make sense to you because you don't accept the premise that some government is okay, so further argument is pointless.

Re: Thank God for Roosevelt thru Bush 41
 

[ QUOTE ]
The justification is quite simple really. Keeping the southern territory was in the best interests of the United States. In the case of the Revolutionary War, it was in the best interests of the Americans to be independent, and in the best interests of the British to keep their colonies. The current administration perceives that it is in our best interests to take Iraq.

What other justification do you need? If the country is cut in half, then the chances of being destroyed by other enemies doubles. The Confederacy would have eventually gained much more power and presented a real threat to the Union. Then when the United States loses a big war, somebody like you will say that Lincoln was a bad president because he failed to protect the union, which led to its eventual defeat.

There are no "morals" or any such thing that govern whether wars are right or not. On a global scale, the world is essentially anarchy, and therefore, no justication is ever even needed to do anything, since nations do not have to answer to anybody. So stop saying that killing so many people is the reason that Lincoln was a bad president, and DO tell us why it was not in the best interests of the United States.

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The ultimate "might makes right" post. Don't worry about whether an act is criminal or not, if it works to YOUR benefit, and you can get away with it, then do it. Awesome. Thank you for illustrating the real evil of statism.