20/40 KK Hand
 

Forgive me if the details are shady.

Decent live 20/40 game, I have a pretty tight image with a few thinkers sitting here and there, and a few that aren't even thinking about anything but their cards.

Player to my immediate right is a decent/good regular player and is the main villian in this hand. He is a very intelligent guy based on our conversations, plays pretty solid but has made some questionable preflop raises (discussed between us as "reads" he's had) and tends to be overly passive IMO postflop in that he sometimes allows hands to draw out cheaply. He didn't seem overly creative, but was certainly a thinking player.

I'm on the button in a with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4 limpers to me including the player to my right and I raise, blinds fold out limpers call.

Flop is rag diamonds, along the lines of 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Checked to me, I bet, folded around to player to my right and he checkraises, I auto 3-bet and he calls.

Turn is J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], and player bets into me.

What's your move?

Re: 20/40 KK Hand
 

call down

Re: 20/40 KK Hand
 

If he's not creative, this looks much more like a semi-bluff with a flush draw than anything else, especially since he only called your flop 3-bet. I would raise and call down if he 3-bets. Although, given your read, folding to a 3-bet is also a strong option, I think he would have to have flopped a flush to 3-bet you on the turn after his flop c/r.

Re: 20/40 KK Hand
 

Raise it.

Jeff

Re: 20/40 KK Hand
 

"the main villian in this hand. He is a very intelligent guy based on our conversations, plays pretty solid but has made some questionable preflop raises (discussed between us as "reads" he's had) and tends to be overly passive IMO postflop in that he sometimes allows hands to draw out cheaply. He didn't seem overly creative, but was certainly a thinking player."

This doesn't sound like the kind of guy who c/r's a monotone flop without a tone.

Re: 20/40 KK Hand
 

I think he has a flush and just called your three bet on the flop because:
a)he didn't want you to fold to a reraise if you didn't have a diamond
b) has a small flush, thought you had a high diamond and wanted to see if a fourth one would come on the turn before he put more money in the pot, when the diamond didn't come he bet again.

-Pete

Turn Play and River Card
 

PTMR (Player To My Right)

OK, well my line of thought thus far was as follows:
- PTMR would raise big pairs, AK/AQ/AJ preflop, limp with any pocket pair, suited connectors, Axs, and some random offsuit broadway cards preflop from his position given the number of limpers.
- PTMR *may* (but probably not) limp with some rag Axo with the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
- PTMR at the point of the turn can be 90% certain I have an overpair.

Also worth noting, on a previous hand I had KK with 3 way action on an AxxJ board (capped preflop, raised flop) and a LAG (who raised preflop and was caught in the middle of the capper and me) came alive on the turn and bet out, which puzzled me and I called him down (because he's been playing and raising trash for about 1.5 hours now, and I was willing to pay for the information. Although what makes the call worse is that the PF capper would have called him down, therefore giving me the easy fold), but spiked a K on the river (ugly) to suck out on his AJ (blah, yeah I hate my play there...I had an easy turn fold). So that may have influenced PTMR's turn bet to equally puzzle me into calling him down (or even raising him).

So come the turn, he does a stop and go and given the info above I call because I am pretty confident PTMR (given the info and applying it) will certainly 3-bet a better hand, but also may 3-bet a semi-bluff draw with something like turned top pair with a diamond knowing I have an overpair and will likely lay it down to him on a turn 3-bet. At this point, I want to see a showdown and am uncertain where I stand and feel raising isn't going to give me any information or have him laydown a better hand or any draw.

So I call, and the river comes a 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or the like, giving a final board of

3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

PTMR bets out without hesitation, I instantly think of Clarkmeister (Hi Clark! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img])...what's your move?

Re: 20/40 KK Hand
 

Raise this turn every time.

Go Pats!
Joe Tall

Re: 20/40 KK Hand
 

And fold to a raise?

As I mentioned in my follow-up, I think this player is somewhat likely to 3-bet both with a better hand and a semi-bluff (hoping I lay down my overpair) and I am certain I want to show this hand down rather than get 3-bet on the turn and backed into a corner with a tough decision.

I felt raise, it almost seemed standard...but I felt that the other player also knows that I know its standard and was betting in hopes that I'd raise. Perhaps I was in too many levels of thinking here (which I feel this player is capable of)...but it didn't seem so cut-and-dry as raise the turn every time.

I know you are a smart cookie, so can you throw some of your logic my way so I can understand if this isn't just a cut-and-dry SOP play in your mind?

Thanks JT.

Re: 20/40 KK Hand
 

First, for the record, I haven't read your follow up yet.

I think this player is somewhat likely to 3-bet both with a better hand and a semi-bluff (hoping I lay down my overpair)

I think you are giving him too much credit. Often, players as you speak, will use such a Stop-n-Go line as they out think themselves. The usually have a A8s, or 99 (will he raise the 99 after limpers here?) and they put a player like yourself on a big [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]-over. They know you are capable of raising many hands on the button. They know you are capable of raising this flop w/big diamond, clean-up, knock out raises. So when no- [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], no-broadway comes on the turn. They think, bet, he's calling cause he's drawing. They pride themselves in a bet like this, they have thought themselves right into it.

That's what I've seen often enough and, when I was learning to think up levels, I would often be that player. I'm still learning, so maybe this another lesson for me but that's where I stand.

-Joe Tall