Turn raise here?
 

UTG is very LAG preflop, somewhat LAG postflop. He will definitely raise light postflop and take shots at unraised pots. 59/29/1.1
SB is a TAG. 27/19/2.4

I had a fairly solid image at the time of this hand, I think.

Is this turn raise spewing? I thought I had a good chance to have a better hand than UTG and I might be able to push out SB even if he had a better hand.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB caps</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>. . .

Re: Turn raise here?
 

fold PF. you don't beat a maniac by playing looser and more aggressive with weaker hands.

Re: Turn raise here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold PF. you don't beat a maniac by playing looser and more aggressive with weaker hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I think KTs is definately strong enough to isolate a LAG whose pfr is 30ish. I would isolate KJs there against most opponents, surely KTs is good vs. a LAG.

I like the rest of the hand. It looks like UTG had a T as well or was waiting until the turn to protect something or raise a monster.

Re: Turn raise here?
 

PF good.

The turn is cool if you think SB will fold AQ/AK hands, which he most probably should, but it also depends on what UTG waits for the turn for. Would UTG possibly raise with JT here?

Re: Turn raise here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold PF. you don't beat a maniac by playing looser and more aggressive with weaker hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
wow dude... you might wanna think before you say something so blatantly wrong w/ such an authoratative tone.

Re: Turn raise here?
 

yo OP, this is solid on every street.

Re: Turn raise here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I might be able to push out SB even if he had a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

this notion of people folding overpairs getting 7:1 in 14BB pots...can you explain it to me?

j/k, i don't think you can play any street differently

Re: Turn raise here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

fold PF. you don't beat a maniac by playing looser and more aggressive with weaker hands.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


wow dude... you might wanna think before you say something so blatantly wrong w/ such an authoratative tone.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't claim any authority here other than my experience and opinion. I posted how I would have played it and the reason therefore. I fully believe that the way to beat a maniacal LAG is not by playing super aggressive with less than premium hands.

Of course, your post suggests that you ARE the absolute authority [ QUOTE ]
something so blatantly wrong

[/ QUOTE ] which I disagree with.

Re: Turn raise here?
 

That LAG's openraising range is huge, why would you not want to be in position, have inititave, and have a strong holding VS HIS RANGE here? I don't know why you are still defending your position when everyone else in this thread has disagreed with you. Accept it and improve your game.

Re: Turn raise here?
 

Fold preflop. He is not raising 29% from this spot, its very likely he is quite tighter there, so its maybe ~23% so your hand is actually a dog and 2 players are still to act.
Also it will often be not that easy to show your KT-high down UI when he is very aggro postflop. I´d just fold it.

Re: Turn raise here?
 

I hadn't meant to turn this into a preflop discussion, although I still think it was correct to attempt to isolate him preflop against his range. He was a big LAGy donkey. I wouldn't argue a lot with folding though, this was close to my 3-betting limit.

Subfallen, you're probably right that I wouldn't get an overpair to fold here, even from a TAG, although if he only has something like JJ he has to entertain the possibility of me having a better overpair.

Re: Turn raise here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Subfallen, you're probably right that I wouldn't get an overpair to fold here, even from a TAG, although if he only has something like JJ he has to entertain the possibility of me having a better overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I´m also sure that you wont get an overpair to fold. 2 pair looks very unlikely with this board and the preflop action. The turn action means that two opponents hit the Ten most of the time when you hold an overpair yourself on this board. JJ might sweat a bit but its not folding. AA-QQ no chance

Re: Turn raise here?
 

I don't think K10s is a strong holding versus just about any range. I think all too often we assume a maniac will raise UTG with 92o every time, a hand where K10s is very strong. The fact is you are behind to a huge amount of opening hands here, you are ahead of a possible few opening hands for a LAGmonster. I will stick to the way I would play here and not try to beat a LAG by playing his game. It has worked well for me in the past, it has always been the advice given by top players, and I think it is the smartest approach.

For anyone who disagrees, do some number crunching and see just how good K10s is versus an open raise. I'd be interested to see exactly what range K10s is worth playing against because I honestly don't believe it is as good as you make it out to be.

Re: Turn raise here?
 

I fold pre-flop, but...on the turn, I feel trapped. The bet and raise ahead of me, I really don't know where I stand. I may just be dumping the hand at this point. (Weak? But I don't want to get trapped between two raisers either where I'm dominated or drawing dead.) You've got little to no outs if you are behind and if you're ahead, what makes you feel good on the river?

Re: Turn raise here?
 

Well, if it gets capped with both guys still in the hand I fold UI on the river. If the TAG calls I haven't decided if I bet the river. If only the LAG calls I bet any non-ace river probably.