Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

I really can't condone what Tuki did (deathrow inmate who is scheduled to get excuted in 4 days and change for the murder of 4 people 25 years ago and founder of the crips gang) but has he done enough for society to spare his life? [ QUOTE ]


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Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

I think he should spend the rest of his life in jail. He is a big advocate for anti-gang groups, so I think he has done his part in convincing society he should live. But in no way should he ever get out.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

People may argue that he has done enough to live, but he did start the Crips, which looking at the carnage they have left in their wake, outweighs whatever good Tookie has done. And oh yeah, he murdered those people. Just my opinion.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

You poll is misleading. The question is "clemency?" but the possible responses are "yes, he deserves the death penalty" or "no, he deserves to live." Fix the wording.

Usually I am sympathetic to a reformed criminal, but his crimes were so heinous (not to mention that he hasn't confessed guilt) that nothing less than death is acceptable here.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

I haven't done any of my own research, but I have heard a fair amount about this.

First, I think he'd do far more good for this world and this country alive than dead. Killing him does nothing more than allow the families of the victims to get revenge for what he allegedly did.

Also, I hear often how he hasn't "confessed guilt" or "expressed regret" for what he's been convicted of. Is it certain that he was guilty of those particular crimes? I've also heard that he has confessed to other crimes, or other activities. Doesn't this give at least a little merit to the idea that he may not have been guilty of those specific murders?

If that's not enough for you, or if he truly is guilty, ask yourself what he'd be saying if he really were innocent and on his path towards execution.

Is there a way to grant him clemency so long as he continues his work with preventing gang violence? If so, I think that is by far the best option here, but that allowing him to live regardless of any qualifiers is better than killing him.

Then again, I oppose the death penalty in almost every, if not every, case.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

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Also, I hear often how he hasn't "confessed guilt" or "expressed regret" for what he's been convicted of. Is it certain that he was guilty of those particular crimes?

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He was sentenced to death for those crimes. 12 people somewhere were pretty certain having heard the facts.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

The jury decided.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

Not only that, but in the 26 intervening years, no exculpatory evidence has emerged.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

I think he should not be executed. Not so much because of whatever good he has done since, but because I don't think the death penalty should be applied to his crimes.

I also think the notion of execution as a fitting "punishment", generally speaking, is flawed and barbaric.

Also, he pretty clearly is not a threat to do that sort of thing again.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

Seperating your opinion on the death penalty, does a person actions in prison really have any bearing on wether the jury was competent in deciding punishment.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

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Seperating your opinion on the death penalty, does a person actions in prison really have any bearing on wether the jury was competent in deciding punishment.

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Essentially no.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

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does a person actions in prison really have any bearing on wether the jury was competent in deciding punishment.

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???

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

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Seperating your opinion on the death penalty, does a person actions in prison really have any bearing on wether the jury was competent in deciding punishment.

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No. However, clemency is not exclusively concerned with jury competence.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

why is all of a sudden the "cool thing" to get scum like this off death row?

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

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why is all of a sudden the "cool thing" to get scum like this off death row?

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Because the death penalty is flawed, outdated and barbaric. Just as it was the cool thing to stop drawing and quartering people.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

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Seperating your opinion on the death penalty, does a person actions in prison really have any bearing on wether the jury was competent in deciding punishment.

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Jury competence is not affected by good behavior, however I think it should be able to lessen punishment substantially.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

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Also, I hear often how he hasn't "confessed guilt" or "expressed regret" for what he's been convicted of. Is it certain that he was guilty of those particular crimes?

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He was sentenced to death for those crimes. 12 people somewhere were pretty certain having heard the facts.

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But are you certain that those 12 people decided without bias of any kind, and with access to all of the facts? Just because a jury finds somebody guilty doesn't mean they were, as has been shown countless times for even death row inmates.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

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But are you certain that those 12 people decided without bias of any kind, and with access to all of the facts? Just because a jury finds somebody guilty doesn't mean they were, as has been shown countless times for even death row inmates.

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That he hasn't won any appeals is further confirmation.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

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But are you certain that those 12 people decided without bias of any kind, and with access to all of the facts? Just because a jury finds somebody guilty doesn't mean they were, as has been shown countless times for even death row inmates.

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That he hasn't won any appeals is further confirmation.

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I'm no lawyer, but don't appeals have more to do with scrutinizing the judge's rulings about evidence, testimony, et al, and not the conclusion the jury reached?

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

I don't know if he should've gotten life in the first place because I don't know all the facts. The only comment I have is that if he wants to live, he should do everything he possibly can to prove that his being alive can have some asset to society.

Besides the childrens books and phone calls and stuff, (which is a great step), I think the biggest thing he could've done is renounce the crips gang. If he were to condemn the crips and work with the cops to break that gang apart and help them bring the members who have been involved in illegal activities to justice, then he can consider clemency. Do you want to live and be labeled a squeeler, or do you want to be loyal to your gang and die? I think he made his own choice.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

I think the real question here is not whether or not the death penalty is appropriate. It is whether or not doing good deeds while in prison should cause the justice system to lighten his sentence.

On another note, this criminal appears to want to discourage violence. I think that the best way to do that is for him to accept his fate and be accountable for the damage he has done.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

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I think the real question here is not whether or not the death penalty is appropriate. It is whether or not doing good deeds while in prison should cause the justice system to lighten his sentence.

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The two ideas are inseperable IMO. The death penalty is enforced based solely on the person's crime. If Mother Teresa killed three people in texs her life or service would have zero weight in the case.

I think the real issue is that people are seeing that the death penalty kills good people too, thats why its so terrible.

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On another note, this criminal appears to want to discourage violence. I think that the best way to do that is for him to accept his fate and be accountable for the damage he has done.

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It has been shown many times over that the death penalty does little to detter violent criminals. Thus your idea that he should take his lumps is pointless, he would die and the only thing it will acomplish is a revenge vendetta.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

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why is all of a sudden the "cool thing" to get scum like this off death row?

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Because the death penalty is flawed, outdated and barbaric. Just as it was the cool thing to stop drawing and quartering people.

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Well, finally something upon which we largely agree.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

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I think he should spend the rest of his life in jail.

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Oh, he will. It won't be very long, but he will certainly spend the rest of his life in jail.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

but isnt the purpose of the criminal justice system is to reform convicts? Just stay out of Hollywood Park, Normandie, crystal park and all the other casinos if he gets executed... I smell 1992 all over again.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

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But are you certain that those 12 people decided without bias of any kind, and with access to all of the facts? Just because a jury finds somebody guilty doesn't mean they were, as has been shown countless times for even death row inmates.

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That he hasn't won any appeals is further confirmation.

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I'm no lawyer, but don't appeals have more to do with scrutinizing the judge's rulings about evidence, testimony, et al, and not the conclusion the jury reached?

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I'm also not a lawyer, but all those things affect the outcome of the trial and if any of them were unfair to this guy, I'm sure it would have been brought up on appeal.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

More than few posts supporting his execution and nobody says why our society is better served by executing this man.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

[ QUOTE ]
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But are you certain that those 12 people decided without bias of any kind, and with access to all of the facts? Just because a jury finds somebody guilty doesn't mean they were, as has been shown countless times for even death row inmates.

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That he hasn't won any appeals is further confirmation.

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I'm no lawyer, but don't appeals have more to do with scrutinizing the judge's rulings about evidence, testimony, et al, and not the conclusion the jury reached?

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I'm also not a lawyer, but all those things affect the outcome of the trial and if any of them were unfair to this guy, I'm sure it would have been brought up on appeal.

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My point is that the trial could have been fair throughout (proper evidentiary rulings and such), and the jury could still have reached a mistaken verdict that all the appeals in the world couldn't change. One of the issues that have been brought up is that a few of the witnesses for the prosecution weren't necessarily reliable. I'm not sure the appeals process could rectify that.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

In theory I am in favor of the death penalty, but the legal system in the U.S. had made the death penalty ineffective.

With that said...fry Tuki Williams.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

guys, i started a thread in OOT about this with some interesting facts. then i pwned a clown named capo. check it out.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

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Seperating your opinion on the death penalty, does a person actions in prison really have any bearing on wether the jury was competent in deciding punishment.

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Essentially no.

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If you believe prison is exclusively a means to keep criminals seperated from society and serves only to punish, then you would be right. If prisons are supposed to serve some reformative purpose then a prisoner's actions and attitudes after serving some time should be considered when determining his final disposition.

Re: Should the governator grant stanley TUKI williams clemency?
 

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Seperating your opinion on the death penalty, does a person actions in prison really have any bearing on wether the jury was competent in deciding punishment.

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Essentially no.

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If you believe prison is exclusively a means to keep criminals seperated from society and serves only to punish, then you would be right. If prisons are supposed to serve some reformative purpose then a prisoner's actions and attitudes after serving some time should be considered when determining his final disposition.

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I agree with this more or less, but that's not what the poster was asking me.