The nature of 800 chip games
 

This is just basically a philosophical question regarding the nature of 800 chip SNGs. In this hand, I had AQ hit TPTK, and doubled up a player with KK. Looking at my HH, the only play that I could question was my flop C/R, but as I think about it more, I don't think that it would have mattered. What I'm getting at is, especially in 800 chip games, is there enough room to ever get away from this? (Being a 22, obviously I have no knowledge of this player prior to this game.)

My feeling is that the stacks are so short that sometimes you are just destined to give all your chips away and that playing any differently might be good for that hand, but bad for you SNG game overall.

I bring this up because I sometimes look at other players' HHs, and I tell them that in order to avoid stuff like this, their games would turn into MUTB weak tight pansies. IMO, if I don't double up the button here, I played the hand wrong. This is assuming an unknown opponent on the 22s.

Correct or incorrect?


PartyPoker, Big Blind is t30 (10 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t595)
UTG+1 (t1350)
MP1 (t730)
MP2 (t850)
MP3 (t582)
CO+1 (t745)
Hero (t835)
Button (t693)
SB (t675)
BB (t945)

Preflop: Hero is in CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, UTG+1 calls t30, <font color="gray">MP1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP2 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP3 folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO+1 folds</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises t130</font>, Button calls t130, <font color="gray">SB folds</font>, <font color="gray">BB folds</font>, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>

Flop: (t335) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">Button bets t100</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises t300</font>, <font color="red">Button raises t463(All-in)</font>, Hero calls t263

Turn: (t1461) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)


River: (t1461) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

Button had KK

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

I think you are right.

BTW, don't throw stuff at me ~ but I usually fold this PF at this level. *Ducks*

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

I completely agree with you on this hand. It's way too easy for him to have a flush draw, an open ender, a weaker Q, JJ/TT. The only hands you lose to are a retarded 2 pair, a set, or an overpair. The fact that our stacks shrink rather quickly as the blinds increase, and particularly because so many of our opponents are willing to put their stacks in on marginal holdings, means that you have to be willing to bet it all in spots like this. Occasionally you get broke, but playing this hand any other way is less than optimal.

Harrington mentions this a couple times in his books. He says stuff like, "He may have you beat, but this is a tournament and you don't have the time to lay down good hands like this. Just push and hope you're best."

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

More often than not you will be winning this hand against opponents with the likes of JJ or lower, KQ, KJ etc, which means you are correct to play it.

Some people may not play AQ so strongly in level 2, but witth your position there isn't a thing I would do differently.

800 chips is more of a gamble/luckfest or whatever, but as long as we are maximising the best of it there is no problem. I would say this is a good example of doing this.

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

Who's Harrington?

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

[ QUOTE ]
I completely agree with you on this hand. It's way too easy for him to have a flush draw, an open ender, a weaker Q, JJ/TT. The only hands you lose to are a retarded 2 pair, a set, or an overpair. The fact that our stacks shrink rather quickly as the blinds increase, and particularly because so many of our opponents are willing to put their stacks in on marginal holdings, means that you have to be willing to bet it all in spots like this. Occasionally you get broke, but playing this hand any other way is less than optimal.

Harrington mentions this a couple times in his books. He says stuff like, "He may have you beat, but this is a tournament and you don't have the time to lay down good hands like this. Just push and hope you're best."

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm scared. Pergesu's advice was spot on here.

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

It usually is.

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

Even in the 1500 chip games I have a hard time getting away from TPTK once about 1/3 of my stack or more has been committed.

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

My personal belief is that both players have to have at least 50xBB before there is enough maneuvering room to escape from TPTK. With any less it is really hard to escape being pot committed by the possibility of a bluff/crazy donk at these levels.

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

The only thing that I'm doing different is C/R all-in. There is really no reason to only C/R to 300. If he comes back over the top, you're not folding anyway. Just put a little more pressure on his decision.

And I agree with the other posters. Playing with so few chips is going to put you to these decisions more than you would like and you have no room to maneuver. Any other way is just playing too weak-tight.

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, don't throw stuff at me ~ but I usually fold this PF at this level. *Ducks*

[/ QUOTE ]

My post flop skills would have to be completely retarded in order to fold here, especially at a 22. Most often my raise is going to buy me the button, and there's just been one EP limper.

Do you know how many times you're going to double up here by hitting TP and get paid off by KQ, AJ, etc...

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who's Harrington?

[/ QUOTE ]
Dan Harrington. He wrote two books on NLHE tournies.

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

sorry, only looked at the HH but:

I wouldn't check this flop

I would go broke here in a $215

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't check this flop

[/ QUOTE ]
Crap, yeah, I overlooked that. I was responding to the "theory" part of this rather than the actual hand.

No way I check the flop. The board is way too draw heavy, and you've got no reason to believe the button will bet for you (you said you don't know him, so you can't say he's hyper-aggro or something). Just bet it, and if it comes back to you raised, three-bet all-in.

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

[ QUOTE ]
sorry, only looked at the HH but:

I wouldn't check this flop

I would go broke here in a $215

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the response, I questioned my C/R, normally I would not check here. But based on his play to that point, I expected a bet from him if checked to. Kind of a stupid thing to think considering it was just level 2, but he had bet up to this point in the game when checked to.

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

Maybe I missed something. But the blinds were 15/30 right? And the player w/ KK just smooth called ur raise right?

I only raise AQos when it's folded down or 1 or maybe 2 limpers...and then I'm not going to push AQos to over 4xBB..but that's just me.

Especially EARLY in a SNG...when the blinds are small...I'm waiting on either premium hands ( sorry I don't personally see AQos as a top tier hand...AKs barely makes it top tier in my book ).

as for post flop...

Well if it were me I'd be wondering what the button smooth called with. ( Did he insta-call with no visible hesitation? )

Automatically I'd be putting him on AK, KK QQ, maybe JJ..but I always think worse case.

Plus now you've got a possible fl draw out there, as well as a str draw.

But again, just my lowly opinion, probably many more people here with much more experience than I have.

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

[ QUOTE ]
Automatically I'd be putting him on AK, KK QQ, maybe JJ..but I always think worse case.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said in my OP, the C/R was dumb. But my god, this is a 22. I'd never put a caller of my raise on a range that narrow. Have you played a 22 recently? Do you see the crap that guys call with pre-flop?

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

The only way to get away from this hand is to fold preflop. BTW, if you were button, and had aces, would you play it any different?

Anyway, this hand reminded me of a hand I played last night that I thought was interesting. FWIW, I don't play Kings the way button did, I hate giving infinite odds for villain to hit his ace.

***** Hand History for Game 3277553297 *****
15/30 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 18690672) - Wed Dec 28 22:14:03 EST 2005
Table Table 67196 (Real Money) -- Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: rockondisco (890)
Seat 2: bsec35 (800)
Seat 3: sickhamlet (800)
Seat 4: APD03 (800)
Seat 5: MickeyCe77 (720)
Seat 6: syd1976guy (800)
Seat 7: BenzoFive (800)
Seat 8: mcdono19 (800)
Seat 9: bacon123321 (790)
Seat 10: Scuba_Chuck (800)
rockondisco posts small blind (10)
bsec35 posts big blind (15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ Ac, Ah ]
sickhamlet raises (30) to 30
APD03 folds.
MickeyCe77 folds.
syd1976guy folds.
BenzoFive folds.
mcdono19 folds.
bacon123321 folds.
Scuba_Chuck raises (100) to 100
rockondisco calls (90)
bsec35 folds.
sickhamlet calls (70)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 5h, 5d, 3c ]
rockondisco checks.
sickhamlet checks.
Scuba_Chuck bets (175)
rockondisco calls (175)
sickhamlet calls (175)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 9s ]
rockondisco checks.
sickhamlet checks.
Scuba_Chuck bets (525)
Scuba_Chuck is all-In.
rockondisco calls (525)
sickhamlet folds.
** Dealing River ** : [ 8s ]
Creating Main Pot with $1890 with Scuba_Chuck
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1890 |
Board: [ 5h 5d 3c 9s 8s ]
rockondisco balance 90, lost 800 [ Kh Kc ] [ two pairs, kings and fives -- Kh,Kc,9s,5h,5d ]
sickhamlet balance 525, lost 275 (folded)
<font color="red"> sickhamlet said he folded QQ. So he min-raised ladies utg. </font>
Scuba_Chuck balance 1890, bet 800, collected 1890, net +1090 [ Ac Ah ] [ two pairs, aces and fives -- Ac,Ah,9s,5h,5d ]

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

[ QUOTE ]
The only way to get away from this hand is to fold preflop. BTW, if you were button, and had aces, would you play it any different?

[/ QUOTE ]

Much differently. I would not smooth call with aces from the button. I'd re-pop it and try to get all my money in pre-flop.

I would have preferred this, of course, since I'd have folded my AQ to a substantial re-raise.

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

I don't know if it is possible to avoid doubling up the button. But I don't like your CR on the flop. What if villain checks, you've given him a free card in case he is on a draw. I think a half pot bet on the flop is best. He will likely raise you and maybe you can fold, but I think the best players probably call and check it down. People on this forum claim that you should not go broke with tptk, (and some claim they can fold here) but I don't recall anyone ever posting such a hand. To your point... there are not enough chips to get away from strong hands... even at level 2!

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

No you can't, you aren't deep stacked enough.

The button is awful anyways. Flat calling with KK, blech.

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if it is possible to avoid doubling up the button. But I don't like your CR on the flop. What if villain checks, you've given him a free card in case he is on a draw. I think a half pot bet on the flop is best. He will likely raise you and maybe you can fold

[/ QUOTE ]


That's my point, I'm not folding here. The check was bad. Once he bet, I should have just C/R'd all-in immediately.

I was pretty sure he'd bet, and there were so many cards that I wouldn't really like on the turn, so I figured I'd C/R. Meh.

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

This thread comforted me.

I often shrug my shoulders and put it in the center...

Sometimes I look like a doneky ass who can't fold TP...sometimes I doulbe through early...seems the latter happens more often...but those strectch of the former make you question yourself sometimes...

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

c/r is godawful on this flop, especially considering stack sizes/pf action

from what i see, so many people here overuse the c/r when a lead is way better in a lot of situations

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

[ QUOTE ]
c/r is godawful on this flop, especially considering stack sizes/pf action

from what i see, so many people here overuse the c/r when a lead is way better in a lot of situations

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

i consider this to be a coinflip like situation, not this exact hand, but hands like these where u have big hands and your oponents also have big hands. If u lose w/ KK to AA or AA to KK, it's a coinflip, if u switch players then the outcome would be the same-- this is NOT where your ROI comes from, it comes from players who misplay their good/bad hands.

it's not how u play big hands vs big hands that provide the largest % of your ROI, it's how u play big hands vs poor hands (read players), bubble play, and table selection.

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

[ QUOTE ]
c/r is godawful on this flop, especially considering stack sizes/pf action

from what i see, so many people here overuse the c/r when a lead is way better in a lot of situations

[/ QUOTE ]

Look, I admit that the check was not great, but to say C/R is godawful is a bit much. I mean, the pot was heads-up. Must I fear a flush draw every time two of a suit comes on a flop? Yes, there are potential draws out there, but IF if am certain (I know you can never be totally sure) that if I check, villain will bet, then what would be so bad with putting him all in with a C/R to make him pay for his draw? If he's ahead (as was the case here), then the point is moot either way. If he's behind, I'm getting all my money in with the best hand.

This is all predicated on his likelihood of betting if I check. If I could be sure of a bet, a C/R all-in seems perfectly fine to me. What's wrong with getting as much money in as possible with the best hand?

Again, I would never check here in a multi-way pot.

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I don't play Kings the way button did, I hate giving infinite odds for villain to hit his ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the other hand, if you think you have an overaggressive villain who will fire repeated shots here with AQ but laydown if you make a move, this is a great way to extract with KK. It's hard to look at some of these things in a vacuum.

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

You are obviously doomed once that flop comes. I dont raise it preflop but thats just me.

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

[ QUOTE ]

You are obviously doomed once that flop comes. I dont raise it preflop but thats just me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Would you call the pre-flop raise a mistake?

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

[ QUOTE ]
The only thing that I'm doing different is C/R all-in. There is really no reason to only C/R to 300. If he comes back over the top, you're not folding anyway. Just put a little more pressure on his decision.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the all-in check raise matters at all. It's either call or fold for him. You're showing strength with any C/R, so the amount you raise in an 800 chip game doesn't matter. He's not laying that down.

I go broke here too often

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I don't play Kings the way button did, I hate giving infinite odds for villain to hit his ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the other hand, if you think you have an overaggressive villain who will fire repeated shots here with AQ but laydown if you make a move, this is a great way to extract with KK. It's hard to look at some of these things in a vacuum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read an old post by William (I think) that was not related to this situation, but applies. He said something like, "no matter how diabolical your plan, an ace always has outs." My point is, I think trapping with KK against an ace has too many drawbacks. If you're playing against an overaggressive villain whose minimal faults include overplaying AQ, I think you should choose a higher vpiper than this guy to do this with.

I see what you're saying. I just prefer a different approach in these 800 chip games.

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You are obviously doomed once that flop comes. I dont raise it preflop but thats just me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Would you call the pre-flop raise a mistake?

[/ QUOTE ]

No I wouldn't, just doesnt mesh with my style in the $33s.

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You are obviously doomed once that flop comes. I dont raise it preflop but thats just me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Would you call the pre-flop raise a mistake?

[/ QUOTE ]

No I wouldn't, just doesnt mesh with my style in the $33s.

[/ QUOTE ]

When's the last time you used any kind $33 style? I wouldn't think you'd remember what a $33 table looked like.

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

I have a good memory.

Re: The nature of 800 chip games
 

[ QUOTE ]

I have a good memory.

[/ QUOTE ]

LMFAO